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720p drop frame sequence need better workflow
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[Shane Ross] “if HD doesn’t suffer the same pecularity of SD in terms of slowing down thus needing the drop frame code, why does it run at 23.976 and not 24?”
Because the standard for 24p Telecine is based on 29.97 video, and it takes too much too change everything in the New world. IT is also so the timing for adding pulldown to make 29,97 is accurate.
Telecine came into being for SD video and we will be stuck with 23.976 for a while to come….
[Shane Ross] ” 59.94 and not 60?”
again same same
in a world where 95 % of the productions are not HD it needs to be compatible in the SD drop frame world.Shane — maybe next time we can work it out so I can get you to speak at NAB ….
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL -
OK…if HD is still 23.98 and 59.94 to better mesh with the SD world…THEN WHY DON’T WE HAVE DROP FRAME CODE to match the speed of the tape? Because now it doesn’t match, and it is KILLING me.
Shane
Alokut Productions
http://www.lfhd.net -
Wow – thank goodness I live in PAL land, I never realised how complicated it all is for you….
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Thank you all for your help. I’ve contacted AJA & Apple on this issue. I can only hope this will be resolved in the very near future.
More people should sound off on this issue.Again Thank You for Your Professional Help
Marcus -
Shane –
The reason we don’t have it is that nobody wants to go to the bother of computing a whole new drop frame standard. Remember that at 60 FPS the “dropped frames” would have to be doubled – 4 missing frames at every minute (other than the 10th) would have to be dropped to make the timings come out right — and obviously creating time-lines that can handle this is ain’t worth the programming cost. Welcome to the world of HD.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions -
[Herb Sevush] “Remember that at 60 FPS the “dropped frames” would have to be doubled – 4 missing frames at every minute (other than the 10th) would have to be dropped to make the timings come out right — and obviously creating time-lines that can handle this is ain’t worth the programming cost. Welcome to the world of HD.”
It’s all fine and good to make comments like this but the truth of the matter is, if you cut in a 720p non-drop timeline, you cannot accurately get the drop frame timing of that show in that timeline. As long as the network require drop frame Masters in HD, it’s something that has to be worked around by the editor. It’s not just “welcome to the world of HD”, it’s the NLE world is not staying compatible with the way the “real world” still operates.
Apple wants us to move forward, but we can only move as fast as the networks will allow. So we’re stuck doing all sorts of workarounds for something as basic as timing a show.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.comDirector, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.comNow Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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[Herb Sevush] “obviously creating time-lines that can handle this is ain’t worth the programming cost. Welcome to the world of HD.”
Ain’t worth the cost to produce accurate timing? Are you telling me that the HD world doesn’t require rigid timing?
No…that can’t be it, because Walter stated that the decks have settings for drop frame HD code…so it exists. But NLE’s (FCP in this case, not sure about AVID) don’t want us to be able to output time accurate shows? Why the heck not?
Shane
Alokut Productions
http://www.lfhd.net -
Walter –
The “welcome to the world of HD” was a sarcastic remark, not an affirmative one.
I do work in 720P60 and I have had to deliver 26 accurately timed (26:46) to the frame shows to PBS and I know exactly how crazy it is to do this, especially when dealing with a 1200A deck that has to be “fooled” into recording with accurate time code. It must have taken me 2 straight days of trial and error to figure out a decent work flow — the irony was that dealing with HD felt like i was going backwards in time, not forwards. And it is just little ironies like that, along with the loss of most of my remaining hair, that prompted my line — “Welcome to the world of HD.” Or as a friend of mine told me when I first considered doing an HD show – “Doing HD is like being in the old west. You’re all alone and surrounded by hostiles and there’s no Cavalry coming to your aid.” I found this to be a fairly accurate description of the situation, with the exception of being able to tap into forums like the COW to scream for HELP!
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions -
[Herb Sevush] “Doing HD is like being in the old west. You’re all alone and surrounded by hostiles and there’s no Cavalry coming to your aid.” I found this to be a fairly accurate description of the situation, with the exception of being able to tap into forums like the COW to scream for HELP!”
That is definitely an accurate description of working in HD. Everybody knows the answers but all of them are wrong. 🙂
Two days to figure out the 1200A workflow? You did better than me. Took almost a week to figure out how to accurately lay back to tape here. Hopefully we’ll be selling our 1200 and picking up the 1400 with RS-422 frame accurate edit to tape. Wow! What a novel idea! Finally, a $25k deck will be able to edit to tape just as accurately as my $6k UVW-1800. Talk about taking major steps backward and then one step forward!
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.comDirector, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.comNow Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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“Hopefully we’ll be selling our 1200 and picking up the 1400 with RS-422 frame accurate edit to tape.”
I’ve been thinking about this as well, but i’m worried that the resale value of the 1200 is going to really drop with the availability of the 1400. With my recent experiences in the vagaries of HD i’m not really looking to invest in any more tape devices — the future is obviously going to be tapeless, if I can just afford to hang in and hold out till it gets here. I’d love to know what you get for your 1200 once you sell it.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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