24p vs 25p advice for HD project shooting in HK

[Noah Kadner]

What is the release format- that is the most important consideration when choosing a shooting format. Converting 24 to 25p or vice-versa can add costs in post.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of the DVX100 and Final Cut Pro!
https://www.callboxlive.com

[John Sharaf]

E,

The donation of the PAL standard HVX200 and the post in Europe would indicate to me that you shoot 25 fps. Just set the frequency rate on your Varicam to 60 (page 4 – options) and the frame rate to 25 and start the party!

JS

[Eric Lin]

Thanks for the replies.

The final release format would be a filmout to 35mm, so for me that says that we should try to shoot 24p at least for principal photography. Maybe we could just play the 25p footage from the HVX200 at 24p and let it slow down 4% in the cut?

Forgive my ignorance, but from what I read about 25p production is that it is mostly for the sake of PAL television broadcast that people shoot 25p in order to simplify the telecine process.

Do people in PAL land who aim to shoot HD for theatrical release still shoot 24p? Or does 25p reign supreme. Forgetting the donated HVX200 aside, but taking into consideration of posting the HD project in Europe, does it make sense to still shoot 24P? What post factors would crop up if we shoot 24P on Varicam and post in Europe? Please share any thoughts you might have.

Thanks! I love the internet.

[John Sharaf]

FYI, feature film production in Europe (namely in 50 hz countries) is shot, posted and exhibited at 25 fps, so it makes sense to do the same with the Varicam, as it is essentially replacing a film camera. The ultimate authority in your case would be the postproduction people involved in you show; you must interface with them to prevent a firestorm later on!

JS

[Stephen De vere]

Just happened to have read this website recently about a film production in UK. They decided to shoot it 24p on the Varicam for 35mm release.

https://www.digitalpraxis.net/credo.htm

“The idea was to shoot 24fps progressive as the goal is for a theatrical release, and previous projects have had problems when shooting 25fps for a 24fps film deliverable. The main problems seem to come from audio re-timing, with left-to-right phasing errors being introduced when re-timing and re-pitching the audio

[Stephen De vere]

This is a great document on the ins and outs of capturing with (film and) digital for 35mm film release. Written in Pal land, though London’s Soho postproduction world works for international (often US) clients.

Under “Technical Papers > Digital Film Scene-to-Screen”
https://www.digitalpraxis.net/zippdf/scene-to-screen.pdf

Haven’t read it all yet but it says it explains in more detail about audio problems going from 25fps to 24fps (but not the other way round). Stretching and pitch-correcting audio can apparently cause phasing/sync errors between channels.

[Eric Lin]

Thanks for the links Stephen. Very interesting article.

This is the first time I heard that people have had trouble with pitching the audio when going from 25fps production to 24fps. Almost everyone else has told me that it is a piece of cake that has been done all the time. Applying any sort of conversion to the audio does seem like it could be fraught with problems.

Let me know if you come across anything that describes exactly how bad the sound is when pitching down when going from 25fps production to 24fps film print.

[Gary Adcock]

[blaqhole] “This is the first time I heard that people have had trouble with pitching the audio when going from 25fps production to 24fps. Almost everyone else has told me that it is a piece of cake that has been done all the time.”

thats because most of the people that do it only go from 24 > 25 for EU distribution and not the other way. Somehow the slowdown going from 25 > 24 bothers people.

I do these conversions quite a bit and it seems the only ones that can spot is right away are the audio guys and musicians.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Stephen De vere]

blaqhole,

Dado Valentic’s June ’07 article “The Right Workflow” on showreel.org describes a DVCProHD workflow using 24(23.98) in Varicam and in Avid Xpress Pro HD for several Discovery Channel TV shows made with Lion TV in London. Shame he doesn’t say why 24 was used. Other post houses followed the example afterwards.

The same workflow also avoids possibly costly frame rate conversions if you shoot stuff offspeed in the Varicam.

Dado Valentic runs Mytherapy, an LA-style boutique for digital cinema in London.

Sorry I’m not the expert to tell you useful things first-hand but I hope this helps your search !

[Eric Lin]

Thanks Stephen. These are great background articles as I make my way through the jungle of HD. I appreciate it.