24p Process

[Steve Roberts]

“1. Through AE, when I look at “interpret footage”, different clips from the same tape show up as different pulldown schemes (SWWWS, SSWWW, etc.). Why is this?! Is that a problem? Should it even be pulldown?”

I’m not sure how dynamic link works, related to the Premiere capture process. But see #2below, as I think you captured at 29.97.

“2. When I digitized through a Canon GL2, did I screw up 24p somehow?”

You might have captured it as 29.97, which is how it gets onto the tape (23.976 with pulldown). Not a big deal, not a screwup. But this explains how AE sees it: 29,97 with pulldown, different each time the record button was pressed, maybe.

“3. At times, it seems as if the footage shows interlaced lines within Premiere. If not interlacy (?), it seems as if there’s a lot of motion blur. Is this normal? Why would I have interlace lines?”

Because it is 29.97 with pulldown, if I’m right in #2 above. 🙂

“4. Lastly, I still need to shoot new footage with the GL2 (29.97 interlaced) for the same project. Plus I need to create graphics through AE for the project. Plus, it is for SD television broadcast. How do I combine these elements? I assume it results in me turning the 24p footage into 29.97 NTSC. Any thoughts on how to do this?”

You could edit the 24p footage as 29.97, which seems to be the way it is. But if you want to do fancy time remapping or roto, remove pulldown work in 23.976, add the effects/grasphics, then render with pulldown back to 29.97 and cut that in with the new 29.97.

a) is that clear?
b) anybody else want to wade in?

[Kevin Camp]

i think you’ll find that working in 24p isn’t as great as some people make it out to be… (especially for broadcast)..

once you figure out the issue with the footage, whether it was a capture issue or an export issue (dynamic link may be to blame, you may want to export each clip individually), and get that corrected so you have progressive frames at 23.976 fps to work with in ae (you can use ae to remove the pulldown if you bring in each clip individually). i would finish all the work that needs to be done on the 24p footage (the keying, the compositing, etc.).

then you’ll need to bring that up to 29.97 to edit with the new 29.97 footage that you are shooting. that is the easy part, when you render from ae, click the render settings and set the frame rate to 29.97 and pulldown (any will do). that footage will now be 29.97, and you can take it into a 29.97 project to edit with your other 29.97 footage.

the next time you try 24p, keep two things in mind that you would like to stay 24p through out the process and you never, ever, want to edit with a pulldown…. so, at capture, make sure to remove the pulldown, edit and effect it all as 24p (no pulldown) and wait until the very end, right up until it needs to go to tape, to add the pulldown to get it to broadcast frame rates.

you also might want to consider 30p for broadcast work if you can shoot it… it has the benefits of progressive frames for effecting, the filmy look of 24p and it’s already at broadcast frame rates so you’ll never need to add a pulldown and interlacing to your beautiful progressive frames.

Kevin Camp
Designer – KCPQ, KMYQ & KRCW

[Steve Roberts]

I concur. Nice look, no headaches.

[Dustin Barrons]

I do appreciate everyone’s opinions and suggestions. All are very helpful. In response to Dave, I do not think it is necessarily placing a band-aid upon a severed leg. It is just recently that I have imported the footage and it most definitely can be re-imported if necessary. Three questions for all of you:

1. What is it that I said that makes you believe it is in 29.97? I don’t mean that in an offensive way, as it may sound so, but more so as I really am just curious how to tell. The timecodes on the clips (at least of what I can tell) are showing as 23.97. Properties are showing as 23.97. I’m wondering if there is a way that I can tell.

2. If I do need to re-import, how would I go about selecting that through a capture. Perhaps this question does need to go to the Premiere forum, but just curious if anyone knows here.

3. What ever caused the pulldown in the first place? Was it the capture settings through Premiere? Was it using the GL2 to capture? I’m really not sure how things work regarding playback in cameras. If a camera does not shoot in 24p, can it also not export nor view in that format? I saw the GL2 as more of a playback/capture deck than anything, but then again I am new at this.

I do not mean to sound as if this is an urgent, do or die type situation. I have about 12 days to figure this out. I am looking at it as more of a learning experience. Would it be better to capture through the JVC then go 24p all the way? How would I even know if I was 24p all the way? I know it may sound like a stupid question, but all the evidence I am seeing points to the footage still being in 24p as I edit and key. Am I missing something? Should I look for something specific to tell me?

Again, thank you all for your suggestions and I hope to hear from you very soon. It is always appreciated.

[Dustin Barrons]

Thank you Dave. This is much appreciated. I truly do, now, understand what the problems would be. I will refer to the Premiere forum as I am sure they will be able to answer any questions regarding that. I do know that this was shot 24p, not 24pa, so this is not a problem. As far as the interlacing artifacts: I must say that this was a misjudgement. It is more of a “wave” every 3-4 frames that contain motion. No idea what this means. Not even sure if this is interlacing artifacts. I am, openly, admitting my ignorance regarding the subject of frame rates. Especially when it involves a conversion process.

Secondly, I would love to shoot 30p from this point forward. Can 30p be shot standard, or is it only at a HD level?

Also, Premiere (not that I’m asking a question regarding it) lists the 24p project settings for DV as having a 2:3:3:2 pullup for playback to a DV device. If a pulldown brings the footage into acceptable 29.97 territory, what does a pullup do?

[Steve Roberts]

Just to add:

24p footage is shot at 23.976, then recorded onto tape at 29.97. The tape has to run at 29.97. Since most of have seen film (24) on video (29.97) for years, it looks rather familiar.

But most of the time, we post types have to get under the hood, so we remove pulldown to get at the 24 (23.976) full frames.

Regarding 30p, just to add to Dave’s post, with 30P, the two interlaced fields capture the same moment in time. So if you view them as a still, you’ll see no “combing” because nothing has moved between the fields. If you view them on a TV, frozen, you’ll see no quivering for the same reason: there is no time change between fields. However, with 60i (regular interlaced video), there is combing and quiver because both fields capture different moments in time, 1/60 of a second apart.

30p gives you a more “filmic” look, with no pulldown headaches.It’s very easy to work with.

[Kevin Camp]

[Dustin Barrons] “I would love to shoot 30p from this point forward”

a new convert to the church of 30p… i’ll be passing the colection plate around soon…

like dave mentnioned the problem with 30p is having a camera to shoot it, but after that it is a very easy workflow. 24p can be fairly easy to work with, as long as you follow the workflow dave laid out. it’s when that workflow get broken or you try to work in 29.97 footage that it gets difficult. and, honestly, probably every one who has done more than just edit 24p footage has run into these headaches, so it’s not just you. but it just seems logical that if a prject need to go to broadcast, staying 29.97 is better (if it goes to dvd or film, hey, 24p is great).

i read a bit about premiere and 24p. it sounded like your set up was correct, and that in a 24p project, capturing 24p should have removed the pulldown… things that may have gone wrong:

-premiere was trying to remove an advanced pulldown (remember, even if the camera shoots 24fps, if its on tape there is always a pulldown).

-you captured a bunch of clips at once (each shot on a camera will record a new pulldown cadence, if you capture multiple shots premiere may have had problems consistently removing the pulldown from those captures). you should try to capture each clip individually.

-there may be some issue with 24p and dynamic link or a setting in premiere related to that. you could try pulling the raw clips straight from the capture folder that your project was set to record to into ae and see what they look like then, or export each clip to lossless animation and take those into ae and check those out.

once you get the 24p pulldown issue fixed, remember you will still need to add a pulldown back in prior to editing it in with the 29.97 footage that you will be shooting (its easier to add the pulldown to 24p, than it would be to convert the 29.97 interlaced to 23.976 progressive). at that point you will be treating it exactly like you would any other 29.97 footage.

Kevin Camp
Designer – KCPQ, KMYQ & KRCW

[Dustin Barrons]

Hello Everyone,
Basically, I would like to extend my gratitude to all of you who helped me out with this issue. That’s what is so wonderful about forums; it allows me to pick the brains of geniuses from across the country :-). Anyway, thank you again for all of the support and I’ve decided my best bet would be to recapture with the camera that I’ve shot with and see if I then have any issues with interlacing, etc. Someone in the Premiere forum told me that they use the same camera to do his work in 24p and with shooting and capturing has not had any of these issues. Hopefully this will ring true. Again, thank you and I’m sure we will “speak” again down the road.

Dustin

PS – Next time I’m either sticking with 60i or going 30p. Screw these headaches 🙂

[Kevin Camp]

i think the cow needs a frame rate forum…

i also think that any device that has ’24p capable’ on the box, also needs to have a 24p workflow clearly displayed under ’24p capable’ and in the same point size…. along with ‘not recommended for users with high blood pressure or heart conditions. the ederly and pregnant women should consult their doctors pior to shooting 24p.’

there’s also a quote from one of the adobe manuals that states 24p ‘has become a popular format for low-budget filmakers’… so the box could just have 24p = low budget filmaker… let”s see how many pulldown problems come my way then…

24p = low budget filmaker… i think that could be a t-shirt or a hat…hmmm

🙂

Kevin Camp
Designer – KCPQ, KMYQ & KRCW

[Kevin Camp]

i think the cow needs a frame rate forum…

i also think that any device that has ’24p capable’ on the box, also needs to have a 24p workflow clearly displayed under ’24p capable’ and in the same point size…. along with ‘not recommended for users with high blood pressure or heart conditions. the ederly and pregnant women should consult their doctors pior to shooting 24p.’

there’s also a quote from one of the adobe manuals that states 24p ‘has become a popular format for low-budget filmakers’… so the box could just have 24p = low budget filmaker… let”s see how many pulldown problems come my way then…

24p = low budget filmaker… i think that could be a t-shirt or a hat…hmmm

🙂

Kevin Camp
Designer – KCPQ, KMYQ & KRCW