24p output to DVCProHD–field order/cadence issues

[Shane Ross]

[Budrick21] “So far the techs at the production house have been unable to do an edit-to-tape. They get a “Compression Settings Mismatch” error. They say they’ve tried everything.”

Your techs don’t know FCP very well then:

#18 Edit to Tape “Incompatible Compression Settings”

Shane’s Stock Answer #18

To Edit to Tape you either need to have your sequence loaded in the VIEWER, or simply drag it from the BROWSER onto the Edit to Tape window and choose Assemble Edit or Insert Edit. For both methods, the tape needs to be black and coded and have TC already on it. And you need to mark and IN point in the ETT window and on the timeline

.[Budrick21] “What the house would like is a clean base version of just the DVCProHD originated material to deliver to the finishing facility, who will ingest separately all the beta and DVD and VHS material and make it look as good as possible.”

Why do they want an output instead of the camera masters?

Shane

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[David Eells]

[Shane Ross] ”
Your techs don’t know FCP very well then:

That’s correct. They know Avid.

[Shane Ross] ”
Why do they want an output instead of the camera masters?”

They think they will save money by not having the finishing house recapture the HD footage, since we’ve already captured it. I have explained my views on this to them.

Still as far as the field order/cadence issues, I’m hoping that if I can get ETT to work, that will resolve itself. I haven’t seen that mentioned as a huge issue with DVCProHD….

For the record, it’s an Intel Dual Core running 5.1.4 with a KONA 3. We’ll be outputting through SDI with RS422 control.

More later, no doubt…

[David Eells]

OK, so now here I am trying to output a 720p24 DVCProHD sequence to an AJ-1400 deck.

I go to Edit to Tape and black the tape using AJA KONA3: 720p 23.98 DVCProHD. I can now MARK the tape as it rolls, but I cannot SET an in point – for example, if I type 59:40:00 for the inpoint, 47:52:00 appears in the window. Either way, when I drag the sequence to the ETT window, I eventually get a General Error (88).

What am I missing?

[Jeremy Garchow]

Oh Budrick. Here we go again. I’d ask how are ya, but I can gather that it’s complicated.

Now, since you have a 1400, the deck should be good to go with assemble edits and should work like any other deck. Se the decks internal timecode to 00:59:30:00. Make sure FCP is on a black frame, and hit record until the tc goes beyond 59:40:00. Then rewind the tape. Next setup your easy setup as AJA KONA3 720 DVCPro HD 23.98 Varicam (this is different from the 720p23.98 DVCPro HD setting). Then open your Edit to tape window. Set the in point to be 59:40:00, drag the sequence from the browser to the ‘assemble’ overlay of the edit to tape window. And away you go.

Jeremy

[Sean Oneil]

I had to do this once. We had a DVD project w/ different framerates, some high-def, some upconverted. 60i and 24p. The finishing place wanted me to deliver a tape with JUST “format x” and a tape with just “format y”, etc. Had to use them for their Teranex and the director had a relationship with the place. It was the worst finishing experience I’ve ever dealt in my life. And it screwed us down the road when we had to create a re-edited version for TV.

All I can say is be careful. This is a destructive workflow. How difficult would it be to convert your non-DVCProHD footage to 24p? That may be a better option for you. Then you can just deliver them a real pre-master (file or tape) and they won’t have any cadence issues.

[David Eells]

Hey Jeremy

I got it to work, but the run time is about :06 longer than the FCP sequence over a two-hour movie. As it’s for broadcast, this might be an issue….

[David Eells]

Hey Sean

Our workflow is similar to yours in that we’re delivering a base layer on a single DVCProHD tape, but the finishing house is going to bring in everything else via teranex, so that headache is theirs.

The problem is in the way they are doing the color correcting. They are going to ingest the base layer into their Avid, and color correct cut to cut. What they have told us is that when we output our base layer, some of the frames straddle the timecode location of the cut – that is, either there is a filed order issue or a cadence issue. I’m thinking it’s cadence, and it’s the nature of the beast, since there is a 3:2 pulldown, and we’re outputting a “24p” timeline to a 29.97 medium.

Another problem is that the show seems to pick up about 3 seconds per hour. This is also an issue.

[David Eells]

Hey Sean

Our workflow is similar to yours in that we’re delivering a base layer on a single DVCProHD tape, but the finishing house is going to bring in everything else via teranex, so that headache is theirs.

The problem is in the way they are doing the color correcting. They are going to ingest the base layer into their Avid, and color correct cut to cut. What they have told us is that when we output our base layer, some of the frames straddle the timecode location of the cut – that is, either there is a field order issue or a cadence issue. I’m thinking it’s cadence, and it’s the nature of the beast, since there is a 3:2 pulldown, and we’re outputting a “24p” timeline to a 29.97 medium.

Another problem is that the show seems to pick up about 3 seconds per hour. This is also an issue.

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Budrick21] “Another problem is that the show seems to pick up about 3 seconds per hour. This is also an issue. “

That’s non drop frame tc, instead of drop frame tc. FCP won’t allow you to edit in a 720p DF timeline (24p is always NDF, anyway).

Jeremy

[David Eells]

Typically the difference between DF and NDF is about :10 per hour (don’t have my calculator handy), so I suppose it would make sense that minus the difference for 24 and 30 it would be more like :03.

So it sounds like the good news is that the runtime according to FCP is correct, but since the tape is NDF it appears longer, but isn’t really.

What remains a little of a mystery is why, when I was using the ETT window to black the first few seconds of the tape, no matter what I typed in the timecode window, FCP would only accept a DF value.