24p Nightmare

[Doug Beal]

#1 The reason for Advanced (PA) is to introduce a cadence of 2:3:3:2 to enable removing pulldown to get to a 23.98 frame base where F1 and F2 are the same image and thus it appears progressive.
Normal 24P will have a pulldown cadence of 2:3:2:3 and may be REV telecined in Cinema tools. The entire clip will need to be treated.
Without a Monitor designed to be used for video and a device to feed that monitor capable of showing frames (F1andF2) it may be difficult to detect which cadence you are working with. Your computer monitor will only display Field1 thus you can’t see interfield motion.
#2 DVX100A shoots to tape interlaced. It’s NTSC SD on a helical scan head 525i.
#3 Pulldown originally comes from transerring images on Film 24 fps to Video tape 29.97 fps. extra frames needed to be created to have 1 second of film be 1 second of video run time. Video cameras approximate this look when recording to tape so no when you capture from tape you get the whole 29.97 fps with pulldown (google pulldown to see the differences between film and tape style pulldowns)

You may get away with blend fields and smart deinterlace filters applied to the resultant file if you export your timeline. What is your delivery format. That’s what will determine what your copurse of action is to salvage what you have.
This is why a plan is necessary, and it’s based on Delivery requirements
Think of Delivery = Paycheck
what do you have to do to get paid and what do you need to make that happen

Doug Beal
Editor / Engineer
Rock Creative Images
Nashville TN

[Emily Cote]

Thanks,
I’m a student, so really i’m not making any money off it, just spending it haha.
it needs to be a DVD for my show.

I THINK the problem is that its 24p normal. From what I’ve read I’ll have to do a telecine to remove the interlacing. Won’t it play normal NTSC though without interlacing? If thats the case is there anyway I could print to tape then just recapture it at 29.97?

How do I do the telecine? I have never used Cinema Tools…

[Scott Sheriff]

“Won’t it play normal NTSC though without interlacing?”

No. NTSC is always interlaced.

I have read quite a few of your posts in the last month. I can appreciate that you are a student, but I don’t understand why your teacher hasn’t covered these basics?

I know every one that gets on a NLE system just wants to jump right in and start cutting, but you would be in a much better place if you can find the time to do some reading on frame rates, video and film standards, etc. I know this is all very dry and technical stuff, but once you learn it, you will have more time to spend on the creative.

Try this wikipedia link, its a decent place to start. Be sure to follow the links to older analog, and foreign standards. Knowing how this all evolved adds perspective. The Final Cut manual has some pretty solid info in it as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

[Emily Cote]

Sorry,
I Have been doing some reading and now do understand much better but I still don’t understand what the solution is, and neither does my teacher. Cruddy education is what it comes down to I guess.

Anyways,
I know if you output 24 p timeline to NTSC at 29.97, you can recapture and make it 29.97 (off Graeme Nattress’s site) which is why I asked that.

I basically just need a solution to this. ANY suggestions would be great. Thanks.

[Emily Cote]

I also REALLY don’t understand why if I capture with the pulldown it still comes into final cut as 29.98. I don’t get why it wants me to turn my timeline into that either.

[Michael Sacci]

[Emily Cote] ” if I capture with the pulldown it still comes into final cut as 29.98″
because that is what the frame rate is, pulldown is the extra frames that make 24p into 30i. (and it is 29.97, not 29.98). To get the footage back to 23.98 you have to REMOVE the pulldown. That pulldown is combining/mixing frames which is why you see a major interlace frame (2 every 5 frames most likely).

But there is no push-a-button solution, If you have 30p and 24p (with pulldown) you will have some weirdness going on, either from extra frames added to the 24 to go up to 30 or from the removal of frames from the 30 to go down to the 24. A major task to say the lest.

In the end if you are delivering this on a DVD try the deinterlace via Compressor with frames control turned on, and set to both. This will be very time consuming so do short test. The other solution is to re-edit and fix all the footage before you start.

[Emily Cote]

SORRY, TYPO! I meant when I capture with the “remove pulldown” its still coming in at 29.97.

[Michael Sacci]

I’m the last person to get onto anyone for typos but I think is part of the issue, you are rushing and just hitting buttons with understand what is going on, I know that is why you are here but you have to stop and think about what you are doing and understand the process.

First there is no way you can mix 24p and 30p and not have some “issue” going out, like I said in the previous post. I you are editing a 30p timeline, the 24p has to have merged frames, it has to create 6 extra frames. These merged frames will look like interlaced. If you don’t want these extra frames your footage will play back as sped up. NO way around this.

Now why don’t you post what you sequence settings are, how you need to deliver the finished project, where or not you have made a test DVD?

[Chris Conlee]

I’m an Avid editor, so I am in no way a FCP expert. But generally speaking, to do what you’re trying to do correctly, one or the other framerates should be converted to match the other before beginning your session. Since anything you shot on your DVX100 is in fact 29.97, with pulldown (one type or the other), you should still be able to capture that without removing the pulldown, thus generating a 30i stream. As somebody else mentioned, this will have to be field-blended in some way to make it look progressive.

It’s unfortunate that you didn’t shoot and edit in 30i, in some regards, because it’s much easier to accomplish frame rate conversions. 30p is a real stumper. Good for certain applications, but difficult to fix problems such as yours.

If you simply deinterlaced the entire project, it might create a smooth playback. However, you’ll basically sacrifice half your vertical resolution to do it. Maybe try simply deinterlacing the 24p (captured as 30i) footage? At least then only this portion of your show would be reduced in resolution.

There are a few tools to look at: JES Deinterlacer, DVFilm Maker, and Miraizon Reframe come to mind. One is free, the other two aren’t.

Good luck.

Chris

[Emily Cote]

I think I’ve actually figured it out…
As it stands now:
I shot 24p normal, the pull down remover on FCP does not remove it, which is why it is constantly coming in at 29.97. I would have to do a reverse telecine via Cinema Tools and then bring it into a 23.98 timeline. Correct?

THEN from there I could print to a DV tape and reimport and it would still have the look of 24p but be the correct frame rate, but would also lose some of the image quality, but still be able to work in 29.97 with both.

However, I burned a DVD and it looks fine enough for right now, no interlacing artifacts, etc. So that’s how I’ll deliver it to my show.

Thanks for everyone’s paitience and input.