24P advanced workflow in FCP and delivery at 60i

[Shane Ross]

Digibeta does not do the 23.98 framerate. It is strictly 29.97 (30i). If your delivery is digibeta, work in a 29.97 timeline from the start. Don’t shoot 24PA for that is if you intend to output to film or DVD only. You can shoot 24P as that can be captured and worked with at 29.97 with no issues whatsoever.

Shane

Shane Ross
Alokut Productions
http://www.lfhd.net

[Jonas Espinoza]

thanks for the reply

what if 24p adv is already shot, and its for eventual 60i broadcast. i have rendered out of a 23.98 sequence a 23.98 10 bit movie, ran it through AE and outputted a 29.97 movie that plays without any motion issues in a fcp 29.97 sequence in fcp.

im curious if there is a better way. or any kind of standard to making this work as well as possible. the 24pA is great and everything, but you cant be serious that plain 24p is way better for returning to 60i than 3223 advanced.

any specific workflow suggestiins, in terms of sequence settings for edit in fcp, export to AE, comp setting in AE and render settings in AE would be good to know in case there is anyone out there doing this for tv delivery.

[Tony]

A major advantage for shooting 24P or 24PA is to minimize the amount of hard drive space required for capturing the footage.

The ability to work in progressive and output to DVD at 24P thereby allowing a better image as well as letting the DVD do the 3:2 pulldown upon playback.

If you are delivering to digi beta you can still cut the sequence in 24PA and via video card such as the Kona 2 or other add the 3:2 pulldown on the fly for recording via SDI to digi beta.

If you are are not going to do any color correction or keying effects in the 10 bit master and are solely uprezzing to 10 bit for output to digi beta this is a waste of time in my opinion.

First of all you can output from dv with pulldown to SDI on the fly via the kona 2 and the resulting digi beta will be a 4:2:2 master.

The advantage of uprezzing to 10 bit before hand would be to do color correction or keying etc in 4:2:2 color space as well as take advantage of the 10 bit sampling.

One last item digi beta can input 10 bit but internally within the deck it will dynamically round off to 8 bit for recording.

Tony Salgado

[Gary Adcock]

[linkoping skrills] “im curious if there is a better way. or any kind of standard to making this work as well as possible. the 24pA is great and everything, but you cant be serious that plain 24p is way better for returning to 60i than 3223 advanced. “

in a interlaced 60i environment shane is correct, The advantage of the Advanced pulldown it it allows you to make a clean progressive frame. your are working in interlace, kinda defeats the purpose.

Secondly 24pA was never meant to be a “Viewing” codec. It was developed for progressive post when using a interlaced or segmented field capture. The “static frame” dupe frame look of 24pA has been know to be rejected by some networks transmission standards, they are accustomed to seeing the standard 3:2 pulldown.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Jonas Espinoza]

there will definitely be color correction involved.

let me get this straight

my current workflow is 24PA shoot tapes, captured with 3223 pulldown removal.

edit in 23.98 sequences in FCP (right?)

? – export my reference movie for AE as 23.98 or 29.97 from FCP.
so far a 23.98 movie, played in a 29.97 comp in AE, and rendered out as a 29.97 movie has played back out in a 29.97 sequence in AE.

back in AE make the final timeline and audio checks with the AE rendered 29.97 movie in 29.97, play out to digibeta which adds the pulldown?

i just need to know the best way to do set up the sequences and comps and outputs.
is there a way within cinema tools to convert. from the sound of it, this is less than ideal with these shoot tapes being 24p adv. since i had no control over that, but i need to get this worked out, any suggestions would be great…

jb

[Tony]

What are you using AE for? Compositing or to do the 3:2?

If for the pulldown only it would be easier to let a facility with a kona card do the pulldown for outputting to tape.

What if any video card (ie AJA, BM or other) do you have for your FCP system?

Were you planning to spit out to film ?
If not I don’t see the editing in a 24PA sequence other than to save drive space and export to a 24P DVD.

If the end result is primarily for 29.97 tape and DVD then make your life easier and choose to edit in a 29.97 timeline.

Which in that case it might have been more beneficial to have shot in 24P from the very beginning.

Tony Salgado

[Gary Adcock]

[linkoping skrills] “? – export my reference movie for AE as 23.98 or 29.97 from FCP.
so far a 23.98 movie, played in a 29.97 comp in AE, and rendered out as a 29.97 movie has played back out in a 29.97 sequence in AE.”

Why?
any board you are using to send the signal back out will do this on the fly when going out via SDI or component.?

I do not understand why are you doing this in AE? the capture hardware will do this better than AE will and you must being using something to bring that signal in as 10bit Uncompressed.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Bryce Whiteside]

Adam Wilt’s 24p: the AG-DVX100 and digital filmmaking

Graeme Nattress’s 24p in Final Cut Pro HD and the DVX 100

Inquiring minds…
Bryce Whiteside

[Jonas Espinoza]

i read the link. good stuff. should get the book. the main reason for AE is color correction, some motion graphs, and generally its 16bit depth for any manipulation. im not big on using FCP for much more than as a cutting station when it comes to more filmic stuff.

so tony said that 29.97 sequence setting and all the way through would work? is the idea that a 23.98 clip dropped into a 29.97 sequence will have the extra frames added back in, or will it just play a little faster.

24Padv for 60i – – thing is we have a number of freelance shooters for the producer that hires me out, and these days the dvx is responsible for a lot that. it was an effort just to get the word out to shooters to mark on the tape what settings were used. now that i know, i will stick with them using reg 24P on future stuff.

appreciate all the minds on this one. I am on a decklink card. would playback of a 23.98 sequence through decklink or firewire play out ok to these 60i destinations?

happy sunday to everyone.