12.5 is out!

[Matthew Zabel]

Sweet. One question though about HDV in 12.5. I see it says you can ACQUIRE HDV on 12.5 which is cool, but can you EDIT it in native HDV (or is it converted into an SD or HD codec), and when completed can I then output to an HDV deck as native HDV?

[Floh Peters]

[matthew Zabel] “Sweet. One question though about HDV in 12.5. I see it says you can ACQUIRE HDV on 12.5 which is cool, but can you EDIT it in native HDV (or is it converted into an SD or HD codec), and when completed can I then output to an HDV deck as native HDV?”

Chances are pretty high that you don´t really want to edit in HDV. This produces a wide range of problems (in e.g. FCP and other apps that supposedly can edit in native HDV). HDV was built as an acquisition format, but the file structure of the HDV stream with the long GOP structure was not thought out for editing. So most of the time editing in HDV is loaded with compromises.
Media 100 did not spend the time on developing an own workflow for editing native HDV files, which bigger companies like Apple and others were not able to manage efficiently. What they are doing is to convert the incoming HDV stream into a supported QuickTime video codec, like ProRes, MJPEG B or uncompressed, which is then used for editing.
Currently you cannot go back to HDV via FireWire from Media 100 (and as I said earlier, you also don´t really want to do that with FCP). There are various reasons why you should not want to go back to HDV, and I think there are simply some limitations on what Apple gives developers to work with regarding the HDV FireWire stream. So while I think there are people who want to go to HDV via FireWire, it is not possible with Media 100 today. But of course you can e.g. use HD component or HD-SDI to record to any deck (as long as it supports HD component or HD-SDI input). Plus, I think file-based workflows (e.g. to BluRay or even to standard 4.7GB DVDs which can play back HD-DVD streams on a HD-DVD player today) will be rapidly growing in the next couple of months.

[Andrew Mehta]

Whilst I understand HDV is a dodgy compression thingie, I’ve been used to mastering to tape at the end of an edit – usually via Firewire to MiniDV.

It’s a shame someone could hand me footage shot using HDV on MiniDV tapes, and after my edit, I wouldn’t be able to hand an edited version back to them on a HDV MiniDV tape. =P

Are you able to use Firewire to monitor whilst editing at all?
I.e. if you just had Producer on a laptop, without a breakout box? =P

Overall, I understand why it’s how it is, or accept the reasons given, but wonder if, even if you edit in a non-HDV codec, whether output back to a HDV camera or deck via Firewire afterwards, is gonna be something M100 will look to introduce?

And if not, what would be the best method to get a HDV MiniDv tape of a final project?

[Michael Slowe]

But why do you want an HDV tape master, who can play it? What we really want to do is go to HD DVD. I find that HDV originated media even when edited as uncompressed HD, gives awful DVD’s after downscaling in either Media 100 or in BitVice for encoding. The DV tape is fine but the DVD awful. Whether it helps editing in HD having upscaled from HDV is a moot point but I take note of everyone’s advice (Floh included) not to edit in the HDV codec. What gives on the Blu-Ray front? Friends say Sony is blocking the playing of any Blu-Ray burnt disc that is not licenesed by the studios, true or false?

Michael Slowe

[Floh Peters]

[Michael Slowe] “Friends say Sony is blocking the playing of any Blu-Ray burnt disc that is not licenesed by the studios, true or false?”

This is not true. There are already BluRay burner and discs out there, and some software packages to burn to BluRay. I think what they are thinking about is that you can´t replicate BluRay (in larger quantities, let´s say 100 discs) in a professional environment without an AACS license, which is mandatory for replication. Unfortunately the whole AACS process is expensive right now. The studio has to have a license, and each batch of discs needs to have its own AACS code, which is expensive also. Plus, if you do a small revision of your project you need a new AACS code, which costs again.

[Andrew Mehta]

Sorry – am new to HD workflow.
I guess I want it mainly for kudos…plus both PS3 and X360 give HD output.
To be honest though, the avenues for publishing would be the internet, or DVD.
But even on the internet after compression, the HD resolution is expected in some instances, and I think a bit of willy-waving goes on regarding who is capable of what.

That said, will be interesting to see how deeply Blu-ray penetrates the home market over the next few years.

And I guess if I ever did work with someone who required HDV out on MiniDV, I could just export from M100 to another programme that does output to HDV?
Again, ‘cos I’m new to HDV, I ought to ask my friends at White Night Films who use predominantly FCP and Z1 cameras, how their workflow works, and what formats their clients request media output to.

For now, I’m still working in SD.

Btw – have moved to Central London now, if anyone wants to meet up. ^_^

Yours,
Andrew,
P.S. – I also posted on HD Workflow a while ago – wondering, upgrading to HDe or Producer aside, what camera is it best to go for when working with HD and Media100? Your criticism of HDV makes me wonder if Z1 would be the way to go or not. What other choices are there for a similar budget? Would a P2 camera be better?

[Floh Peters]

[Andrew Mehta] “P.S. – I also posted on HD Workflow a while ago – wondering, upgrading to HDe or Producer aside, what camera is it best to go for when working with HD and Media100? Your criticism of HDV makes me wonder if Z1 would be the way to go or not. What other choices are there for a similar budget? Would a P2 camera be better?”

I think HDV is a good format for acquisition/shooting, and it gets even better when considering the pricepoint. Currently in the low-end HD market I would look either into HDV or into Sony SxS cameras, depending on how much money you want to spend on your gear. While P2 was the first mainstream tapeless format on the market, the interest in it seems to drop currently due to the fact that it basically is built on “old” slot standards, while Sonys SxS is based on the next generation. Haven´t reviewed the NAB camera news much, though. I think when looking into what´s new at NAB this could change again.

HDV simply was designed for shooting, and not for editing.

[Andrew Mehta]

So for now, a Z1 and Media 100 Producer is probably still the way to go?

I’m not too bothered at the moment really though – it’ll still be a fair few months before I’ll have the cash for any major upgrades.
But I might lookup SxS online, as I hadn’t heard of that till now…

[Michael Slowe]

Be careful about the new card recording if you are editing in Media 100. As Floh knows, Media 100 can’t yet support this new Sony codec but (as the owner of the new Sony EX 1) I very much hope that they will be able to by the end of this year.

Michael Slowe

[Floh Peters]

[Michael Slowe] “Be careful about the new card recording if you are editing in Media 100. As Floh knows, Media 100 can’t yet support this new Sony codec but (as the owner of the new Sony EX 1) I very much hope that they will be able to by the end of this year.
“

Actually as long as you shoot in “HDV” mode you should be able to transfer the files from the cam via FireWire, just as you would with HDV tape-based formats. Of course this is not really a file-based workflow, but it should work fine and support 4Ch audio as well.