10-bit HDR TV for monitor?

[Ben Balser]

May folks mistakenly use a TV as a broadcast monitor. A real broadcast monitor shows the raw image. All TVs, without exception, use some type of automatic filtering and adjustment to make the image look best on that manufacture’s hardware. Go into any big box store that has a wall of TVs running. Notice the wide variation in coloring on each screen.

You can use a TV, you can make your images look great, but it’s no better than a computer monitor. Other TVs may show the image with altered grading results. But alas, lots of folks do it.

[Matthew Jeschke]

Ah interesting… Yes that would make sense. Not sure I have the $$ for a ~75″ broadcast monitor. When I built my editing machine I bought a tool from X-Rite to calibrate the 10-bit monitor I edit on, cause I couldn’t afford a broadcast monitor… It seems to get me close enough. Someday I may have to buy one of those little ones… I digress though.

I should probably make sure there’s a TV / display I can calibrate somehow, or a dongle to adjust the signal accordingly. The TV / large display would be more to have audience screen the videos. Perfect color matching wouldn’t be 100% necessary but a good quality none the less.

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Matthew,

As someone who has got a Davinci with Mini Panel parked at home, I hear you.

You don’t mention much about your kit and the kind of programming that you want to get stuck in on.
No point in going the the full way on monitor, if your processor and SSDs/Raid can’t keep up.
Same if you are only working in REC709, rather than REC2100.
Better off just getting started grading, and the rest will follow naturally.

A “smaller” monitor for accuracy by your desk, maybe coupled with a smaller monitor running Nobe Omniscope, is a good starting point.

You can still have the big screen in the room, and if you get a decent one, you should be able to make a match to a smaller screen.

Don’t forget furnishings and wall paint, + remove daylight – you probably already know this, please accept my apology if I sound patronising.

For the bigger screen, OLED are dropping in price fast as MicroRGB is the one to watch out for.
LG and Samsung have already promoted their screens:

LG “Small print”:
“Certified for Triple 100% Colour Coverage

Micro RGB evo is the only TV with 100% coverage across three standards—BT2020, DCI-P3, and Adobe RGB—ensuring optimal accuracy for everything from HDR Cinema and digital editing to next-generation display technologies.”

https://www.lg.com/uk/ces/micro-rgb-evo/

At 115′ you might “need a bigger boat”:
https://www.samsung.com/uk/tvs/micro-rgb/r95h-115-inch-rgb-vision-ai-smart-tv-mre115mr95fxxu/

For “standard” HD/4K, my favourite go to is EIZO:
https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/coloredge/index.html

A few of our colleagues also put the 6K Dell UltraSharp 52 Thunderbolt Hub Monitor – U5226KW into the top of monitors for colorcorrection:
“Colour Gamut

• 99% DCI-P3 (CIE 1976)
• 100% sRGB (CIE 1931)
• 100% BT.709 (CIE 1931)
• 99% Display P3″

https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/dell-ultrasharp-52-thunderbolt-hub-monitor-u5226kw/apd/210-btfw/monitors-monitor-accessories

Just an opinion, hope that it helps?

Atb
Mads

PS: Note how I mentioned that OLED is dropping in price – some come with 5-year warranty, and will do well in your livingroom or whereever you retire it to.

[Matthew Jeschke]

Sure thing thanks for sharing. Your post is SUPER helpful. That LG display is enticing…

I guess I didn’t share much about my setup for sake of brevity but maybe helpful.

My machine edits 4k no problem…
i17 extreme (10 cores) 1080Ti Graphics, 64gb ram, etc. etc. etc.
24TB RAID setup
Davinci Color Panel & Speed Editor

Editing screen is a LG 31MU97-B
Then calibrated with X-Rite monitor tool (forgot model)
I have the white lite to adjust the eyes behind the monitor
Editing room is painted middle gray

Audio equipment for voiceovers… etc. etc. etc.

Long story short, I got into color grading about 6 month ago and the footage looks AMAZING on the LG 31MU97 display but *meh* on tired old HD TV in my theater room and not nearly as good when loaded to YouTube. I’m wanting to audition on a more capable TV / Large format display (~75″ UHD 10bit HDR capable), potentially start publishing video in HDR or some format that better captures my work.

NOTE: I assume HDR is HLG w/ BT2020? All I know is it’s a larger color gamut and gamma profile… and I would assume my current Theater TV is only Rec.709 w/ Gamma 2.4 or something there about?

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Matthew,

Sounds like you are most of the way there already.

Just keep going in that direction; you are doing fine.

I often have this discussion with my clients: That the output will look different depending on what screen you are watching it on. Last year I had a somewhat painful experience working in the client’s living room, where we had 3 different screens with 3 different looks…

My advice to my clients is always depending on where they want to distribute their film to, is to go to a cinema with a DCP file. In my neighbourhood of central London (East), I have several local cinemas that will generate the DCP and hire their theatre out in off-peak times for private screenings.

Obviously if this your “new” career and you want to make it your main “bread and butter” you will want to offer a high technical standard. That will cost you money to invest in, and it will also allow you to charge a higher fee per hour.

If you are set on doing it from your studio, rather than buying right now, you could hire in a monitor or projector for the “last mile” of delivery. And, build the hire cost in to the cost of project delivery. This could work better on a long-form project where you would do a base grade + the rest, before the client turns up for the final screening on the “big” screen.

I might not have got your location right, but it is worth doing a Google Search for local hire companies. Even if they don’t have a 4K/8K monitor for HDR grade, they might know someone who does. Or be interested in investing and offering it as a service.
One quick search gave me this result:
https://azcine.com/index.html#aboutus

This might even come with the “unfortunate” side-effect of them being able to refer clients to your services.

BT. 2020 (Rec. 2020) is not full HDR, for that you will want to be Rec. 2100 which enables higher contrast and brightness.

Atb
Mads

azcine.com

Arizona Cine Equipment -Tucson Audio and Video Equipment | Phoenix Theatrical and Special Event Services

Equipment rentals and complete coordination of a wide variety of events, including; Trade Show Exhibitions, Concerts, Theater Productions, Motion Pictures, Corporate Meetings, Conferences, Special Events.

[Matthew Jeschke]

Wow you are very knowledgeable. Thanks for clarifying the color space for HDR, Rec2100. I assume gamma is HLG?

I don’t think I can afford the stuff I’d really like. It looks about $10,000 for a 75″ display capable of covering the Rec2100 color space, as in the LG one you mentioned above (not out yet).

I mainly do editing for my own businesses, advertising, etc. I’ve had a few clients but not enough to keep the lights on otherwise. Mostly I do it for fun now, documentaries and vlogs in mountains. Somebody put in my head to enter into some film festivals but I think before then I’d just like to showcase my work in my theater room to friends and family on a decent TV… The YouTube bitrate really doesn’t do the color grading work justice. I think I’m going to use a thumb drive to TV until I can get a HDMI 2.0 extender setup.

Your story about three monitors brings back a client I had where I photographed their house. I don’t know how many retouches I did and she always said my walls are avocado green, not lime green. I dove into all the color calibration stuff then.

Back to the displays…

I’m thinking a nice compromise with be DCI-P3 coverage which is narrower than rec.2100 but should still look better than what I have. Some of these TV’s get decent coverage for under $1500 for 75″.

If I put up with the FRC emulated 10-bit then I can get them for around $600. Not sure I’d want to compromise on that though? I’ve never had a FRC monitor…

I think it tricks the eye by flickering the the color shades to emulate the 10 bit gradient it cannot hit in a single frame? Does that make a big difference in viewing experience as in what I’m looking to do?

[Ben Balser]

Learn to use video scopes, they’ll help you dial in to the most universal and true settings.

[Matthew Jeschke]

I meant to circle back to this post and put my notes. I got a TV to show my videos to a sample audience on.

I ended up purchasing the Hisense U7N, seemed to be the best I could pony up for the $$. I have been taking my grades from my editing machine and displaying them on the TV, then comparing them with my eyes… so take comments with a grain of salt.

It’s DCI-P3 appears quite good as I’d found in my research. It appears U7 may clip a bit in Rec.2020 though (where my extents got beyond P3 I didn’t see as much detail on the TV ~ blue to yellow).

It’s a beast for the money though. The next step up which was way better yet was the Sony Bravia. I’m told it has better Rec.2020 coverage. The Bravia was beyond my budget. Although it’s was probably the best value given Rec.2020 coverage. Anything offering more accurate color beyond that was well past my budget.

The MiniLED blacks are insane. I think that’s OLED(s) strength are blacks given it’s ability to meter luminance per pixel. However, dang MiniLED looked REALLY good I couldn’t tell a difference there. When a scene fades to black, it looks like the TV turned off in my Theater room.

For audience screening purposes the Hisense U7N is quite good. It’s going to more than do the trick for me. Although, I’ll constantly be wishing I’d the money for the Bravia. I do grade a few things and have to pull them back a bit so they don’t clip on the TV.

Thanks for the tips!

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Matthew,

That is great news, and the Hisense U7N is not a bad choice for the money.

Consumer, Pro-Sumer and professional monitors is a fast moving market, so when you come to buy the next monitor, you are likely to find something much better than what is on the market now.

Although there is mixed opinions about self-calibrating montors (depending on brand) that is what I would suggest you look at next. Adding to the other high specs that you will want for a good UHD grade.

Atb
Mads

[Matthew Jeschke]

Thanks! I’m liking the Hisense U7 so far. I realized my main LG 31MU97 is starting to show it’s age. It supports DCI-P3 (and not bright enough for HDR?) and maybe somewhat limited with Rec2020. I may need to get a new monitor at some point for my editing machine itself (Asus Pro Art?).

I have a couple questions if your so kind…

What do you use to calibrate your displays? I found my “x-rite i1display”. It seems X-Rite software obsoleted it😫 It not serves as little more than a paperweight.

Bypassing windows color management? I think Davinci Resolve tries to disable ACM in windows. I never quite trust that… I noticed Black Magic also sells a dongle to ensure you have a clean video out to the monitor. What do you do to avoid Windows (or your OS) messing with the colors?

Thanks!