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AVCHD Rendering
I’m trying to learn Vegas Pro 8 and one thing that I would like to know is if I can avoid rendering parts of a sequence in AVCHD format that haven’t been touched, either by effects, transitions, color correction, etc. A kind of “smart rendering” as it’s called sometimes. I rendered as AVCHD with the same dimensions and frame rate as the originals, but it seemed to me that Vegas rendered the whole thing, even segments that didn’t really need rendering. Am I missing something? Is smart rendering possible in Vegas?
Thanks
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45 Replies
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Smart Rendering of AVCHD isn’t possible in Vegas (Nor any other NLE, AFAIK).
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASSTCertified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor -
Thanks for your reply. Do you know if there are any plans to fully support AVCHD in a future update or full release? I also noticed that the Export module for AVCHD doesn’t do real 1080i but only 1440×1080.
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Sony *does* fully support AVCHD. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. If “fully supporting” means smart rendering, then you’ve got a long wait ahead of you. You don’t have a machine that can work that fast.
Additionally, 1440 *IS* real 1080i/p.Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASSTCertified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor -
What I’m getting at is that the render module that allows you to output an AVCHD file, which is Sony AVC, if you select AVCHD with the m2ts wrapper, the frame size is set to 1440 x 1080 and grayed out, so you can’t modify it. Since my camcorder is 1920x1080i, I don’t want to lose the pixels.
As for smart rendering, I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. Are you familiar with a small cutting program called VideoRedo, which works only with Mpeg files? In case you don’t, basically all you can do is select scenes from a video and send them to a list, then save a new video from your selections. It only re-compresses the frames necessary to provide a frame accurate editing because of the GOP restrictions, but it simply copies most of the frames untouched to the new video. That’s what I’m talking about, that’s what I wish I could do with Vegas, or any other NLE. Having a fast computer only makes the re-encoding of those few frames faster, but for the most part it doesn’t use much power because it’s basically copying frames from one file to another.
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You’re not losing any pixels. The format used in the consumer AVCHD camcorders is 1440 x 1080 with a PAR of 1.333, just like HDV, just like what the satellite and cable networks broadcast.
In Vegas, you have frame-accurate editing without a reencode or cut list. Yes, I’m familiar with Video Redo, just as I’m familiar with Womble and other similar tools.
Your system still has to decode/read the frames. Video Redo isn’t an NLE. Nor is Womble. NLE’s are different beasts than frame encoders.Additionally, you can set a custom frame size in the Vegas encoder (assuming you’re using a fully licensed version) and set the vertical to 1920. But what are you expecting to play it with/on? Blu-ray and HD DVD both will only accept a 1440 x 1080 file.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASSTCertified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor -
In older HD camcorders it was 1440×1080, but some newer ones like mine (Panasonic SDC HD5) use the full 1920×1080 with 1.0 PAR. And I don’t know about Directv but at least cable doesn’t broadcast in 1440, it does 1920, since I capture verbatim copies from my cable DVR (SA 8300HD) using Firewire, and every program I load those files into tell me that they are 1920×1080.
In the Vegas module that allows AVCHD output, when you select AVCHD with a m2ts wrapper, you cannot select 1920, it grays out any field or drop down list that would allow you to select or change the frame size. Now, if you select the .avc video elementary stream, it does allow you to output a custom frame size, but the resulting file can’t be used in anything I have. For example, if I load it in Nerovision and try to make an AVCHD DVD it tells me it doesn’t recognize it.
Basically, what I want is to be able to put my home videos in an AVCHD disc like the ones the Panasonic software makes, but having edited the video I shot in Vegas. Before you ask, the Panasonic software is very basic and doesn’t allow importing of any other AVCHD files that were not imported from the camcorder to the working folder.
You say “In Vegas, you have frame-accurate editing without a reencode or cut list.” You mean, for other formats, but not for AVCHD, right? Judging by the amount of time it takes to render a timeline that doesn’t have any effects or filters applied to it, it seems obvious to me that it’s re-encoding every single frame.
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Sebastian,
We’re going in circles here.
You cannot deliver HD in a PAR of 1.0 outside of a computer. It is delivered at 1.333 on all playback devices. If you want to keep it at 1920, I’ve already told you how. Very few players/applications can read a 1920 x 1080 file in AVC format.
I’ve previously explained that “Smart rendering” is not supported for AVCHD in *any* NLE system. Call it smart-rendering, non-reencode rendering, whatever you’d like it’s all the same. Every frame in AVCHD is reencoded. It has nothing to do with GOP, it has to do with how the format is decoded, how the NLE developer chooses to deal with it, and how the NLE is set up to allocate/absorb resources.
I’m aware of the ridulous, effectively useless software Panasonic bundles with it’s camera. I own an SD1 and and SD5, and have reviewed them both.Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASSTCertified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor -
In the Vegas module that allows AVCHD output, when you select AVCHD with a m2ts wrapper, you cannot select 1920
In order to render 1920×1080 in H.264 render with the Mainconcept AVC encoder from Vegas, it allows you to render 1920×1080. The Mainconcept encoder uses the MP4 wrapper, which in general is preferable to the M2TS I think, but don’t quote me on that.
Basically, what I want is to be able to put my home videos in an AVCHD disc like the ones the Panasonic software makes
That should not be a problem as such, but you are going to find it hard to find authoring software that supports what you want to do. There is some, but it won’t do 1920×1080 at the moment as far as I know. But rendering from Vegas should not be a problem.
Currently I render 1920×1080 from Vegas in MP4 25M/s, burn it to a data DVD and play it on my Playstation 3. Currently working on setting up streaming instead. I use Ulead DVD Movie Factory to create AVDHD disks, they are at the moment the only thing that works reasonably (and Nero too) but the quality is not up to snuff. Probably have to wait until summer or so for the software to catch up.
You say “In Vegas, you have frame-accurate editing without a reencode or cut list.” You mean, for other formats, but not for AVCHD, right?
At the moment there is no NLE in the world that will do frame-accurate editing for AVCHD, and given the time it took to get only reasonable HDV editing, that is probably a couple of years away still. If you want to edit the AVCHD format your best bet is going to be to convert it to an intermediary using something like Cineform NEO HD and edit this. It’ll cost you a buck or two.
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[DSE/Spot] “You cannot deliver HD in a PAR of 1.0 outside of a computer. It is delivered at 1.333 on all playback devices. If you want to keep it at 1920, I’ve already told you how. Very few players/applications can read a 1920 x 1080 file in AVC format.”
I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what you mean by this. Several devices, both video cameras and TV sets support full 1920×1080 with a 1.0 PAR, in fact the market is full of them right now. If all those LCDs and camcorders with stickers that say “1920×1080” are really 1440×1080, then all the electronics companies are suicidal because they would get class action lawsuits all over the world. Or maybe I just don’t understand you, because basically what seems to me you’re saying is that 1920×1080 is a resolution that only a computer can display, and everything else is 1440×1080.
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Display and delivery are NOT the same thing.
BD and HD DVD both support 1920 x 1080; rip a BD and look at the frame size of the majority of HD content. It’s 1440 x 1080. Just like the majority of HD camcorders.That said, NO ONE is broadcasting 1920 x 1080. How is the display displaying a 1440 x 1080 image? I’ve already explained PAR.
Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASSTCertified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor
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