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P vs. PSF
Hello,
I’ve been posting to the Kona section and here about sync issues but think I’ve finally gotten to the root of my problem and have a more concise question for you all:
If you have PsF footage, what do you use as a client monitor? Just for screening cuts, a 42″ consumer priced monitor, not something for accurate color.
I was using HDMI out of Kona LHi breakout box to plasma monitor and wondering why I couldn’t get an image with FCP in 1080psf playback setting, and could only get an out of sync image with 1080p settings. Then I discovered HDMI can not handle psf streams. I am going to try component but am nervous that won’t work either and it’s my TV that’s the problem, that’s why I’m interested in what models everyone else uses.
thanks,
abbi -
11 Replies
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This is why you spend $1300 on a HD-SDI option for your Panasonic Professional Plasma screen.
There is no free lunch in this area. Whaddya expect?
Mark
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[Abbi Jutkowitz] “If you have PsF footage, what do you use as a client monitor?”
SInce that is the default for 1080 HD delivery, any good looking display will handle the content.
“Then I discovered HDMI can not handle psf streams.” Partially Correct. That would depend on the device, some allow for P vs PsF signal conversion, but not ever (IMHO) on a cheap consumer display. They are expecting 60i materials
but the simple answer is YES HDMI is always progressive,
“I am going to try component but am nervous that won’t work either and it’s my TV that’s the problem,”
Its the default signal for 1080 HD, Its not your TV.
Your display can handle either type of signal and my guess is that you will not be able to look at the 1080p signal over the Component connections- it will have to be PsF.
welcome to the jungle.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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Thanks for the responses. A few further questions if you don’t mind…
“SInce that is the default for 1080 HD delivery, any good looking display will handle
the content.”Any suggestions on displays? Currently I’m using the Panasonic TC-P42S1 1080p TV
“Its the default signal for 1080 HD, Its not your TV.”
So if psf is the default for 1080 HD, then in this case, in wanting to display that image on my plasma via HDMI the problem is my TV, or at least how I’m connecting to the TV, right? I have sequence settings match my clips as AJA Kona LHi 1080psf 23.98 Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy). But when I choose psf for the playback setting I get no image on the monitor. When I choose a 1080p or 1080i setting I get an image but it does not keep sync.
“Your display can handle either type of signal and my guess is that you will not be able to look at the 1080p signal over the Component connections- it will have to be PsF.”
Other than component not looking as good as HDMI, this is okay and what I want since my footage is psf right? unless i want to get another monitor with HD-SDI hookup?
Further specs:
Mac Pro 2×2.26 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
RAM is 6gb 1066 MHz DDR3
OS 10.6.2
Kona LHi driver 7.5.1 with breakout box
FCP 7.0.2 working with ProRes 422 (Proxy) footage
Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD Recorderthanks so much,
abbi -
Pick one forum to post this stuff in, I am not going to answer here and in the Kona forum.
“Other than component not looking as good as HDMI,”
Incorrect- where did you ever get that Idea from? – HDSDI is Digital Component- 3 Wire on your display is the analog version of that same signal – there should be NO difference in picture quality from the Kona card.
go read the post in the Kona forum- I believe it is a setup issue
you Need to use the Kona Control to be setup correctly.Have you called AJA’s tech support?
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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“Pick one forum to post this stuff in, I am not going to answer here and in the Kona forum.”
I posted in Kona on the 26th and only got one response that was unfortunately not helpful. I thought my problem was more FCP/Settings and Setup based so reposted here with a clarified question. I don’t see any response from you in the Kona forum, but I thank you very much for your responses here. You mention to read “the post” in the Kona forum, but I’m not sure which one you’re referring to. did you mean this one?
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/193/875880
i read a bunch of psf posts but none were making me understand the issue fully; that’s why i posted, to learn more.“Incorrect- where did you ever get that Idea from? – HDSDI is Digital Component- 3 Wire on your display is the analog version of that same signal – there should be NO difference in picture quality from the Kona card.”
I guess I didn’t realize the analog version of something digital would be as good looking as HDMI but of course it can be. Only my ignorance showing, no shame in that. Thanks for the corrected info.
“Have you called AJA’s tech support?”
I called them first thing, told them my setup with FCP settings, In and Outs, etc., and they did not pick up on the problem. they told me to use the 1080i 29.97 setting to get video to the monitor, but when i do that the picture does not stay in sync. that’s why i’m trying to get the psf setting to work.I’m new to posting to the cow’s forums and FCP and nitty gritty technical info, but not to searching forums, troubleshooting, or cutting. Thanks for your patience.
abbi -
[Abbi Jutkowitz] “I guess I didn’t realize the analog version of something digital would be as good looking as HDMI but of course it can be. Only my ignorance showing, no shame in that. Thanks for the corrected info. “
Thank you for not taking my response personally,
Understand that HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is called that because it simplifies the process of connectivity on the user side, but with that ease means something is lost in the translation.
HDMI was originally designed as a computer interface connection, not intentionally for video usage. Any ancillary data in the video stream is lost, including Timecode,metadata, even VANC info and machine control are discarded by the HDMI interface.
PsF is the legacy issue, P is the future and right now you need a little help figuring out the new stuff, (hell you got PsF correct, that is far better than most do)
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/garchow_jeremy/HP_DreamColor_CRT_Replacement.php
and for Reference here some info on HDMI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMIgary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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An update, but I’m still having sync playback issues. I tested playing my psf sequence over HD-SDI to a pro monitor. And I am still having a sync problem. Specifically it is apparent when I play 48 fps, I can see clearly that the monitor picture is lagging behind. I was surprised by this, so I’m returning to ask for help again.
I ran a hardware test on my Mac Pro and everything came back fine. Now I’m running RAID Utility verification. Even when I play media off the boot drive I have the sync playback issue so I am really truly stumped.
Thanks in advance for any ideas…
Abbi -
[Abbi Jutkowitz] “but I’m still having sync playback issues.”
OK,
we start all over again since none of your problem is listed in this thread.
WHere does your audio and video come from ( camera, codec and capture method)
What computer and hardware configuration, software versions are you using?
is it a picture to audio sync? or display to display sync.WHY are you trying to playback 48 fps material- that is not a standard frame rate for video.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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Thanks for sticking with me, Gary!
My audio is originally being recorded on Deva and Fostex (switched in the middle of the shoot) as polyphonic bwfs at 24 bit 48k. My video is being recorded on RED 4.5k RAW files 23.98fps.
A lab transcodes and syncs for me with RedRocket and RedCine–I dont know too many details of their process other than what they give back to me is QTs that are Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) 1920 x 1080 32 bit 48k. They are 32 bit instead of 24 bit for some unknown reason that has to do with syncing outside of FCP. However, when they sync with FCP I get 24 bit files–we did a test. Both have the same external display playback sync issue so I don’t think that’s the root of the problem. Audio playback is fine, it’s only picture that lags.
My tech specs are:
Mac Pro 2×2.26 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
RAM is 6gb 1066 MHz DDR3
OS 10.6.2
Kona LHi driver 7.5.1 with breakout box
FCP 7.0.2 working with ProRes 422 (Proxy) footage
Footage is on Internal RAID, 3 x 2TB drives 7200rpm, setup as RAID 5 with Apple Hardware RAID controller. (all three drives are the same, Hitachi HDS722020ALA330)
ATI Radeon HD 4870 Graphics Card
2 Samsung 23″ LCD monitor for Browser left, Viewer/Canvas/Timeline right
1 Panasonic 42″ TC-P42S1 1080p TV for external display for viewing. Hooked up via Kona LHi BOB with HDMI, also have tried it hooked up component.
Audio plays out via analog XLR running from Kona BOB to a Mackie 12 channel mixerProblem is display to display sync, picture only. Picture is sync to audio, no problems there. Canvas and Viewer playback in sync. When I bypass the Kona card and playback with external display, that is in sync too. (Which made me think it was the Kona card but I’ve gotten a new one and tried it in slots 2 and 3 with the same results.)
I am not trying to playback 48fps material, I was trying to explain that when I playback my 23.98 footage at what I assume is about 48fps by hitting the L/Forward key twice the display to display NG sync is even more apparent. (The lag is there at regular playback too, higher speed just makes it more obvious.) The more times I hit L/the faster I play, the more the picture on the monitor lags in relation to the Canvas which always stays in sync.
The reason I am using the Kona in the first place is that we wanted to be able to have 3 displays (as described above in the setup specs) AND to be able to crash record out to a DVD recorder. Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD Recorder.
I’d love to get this setup working but at this point we’re also thinking of abandoning the plasma & the DVD Recorder, just getting two 30″ computer monitors and using desktop display. Even though we don’t really want to lose the crash record capability.
THANK YOU!
Abbi -
[Abbi Jutkowitz] “dont know too many details of their process other than what they give back to me is QTs that are Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) 1920 x 1080 32 bit 48k.”
and what part of that is wrong?
24bit 48K audio is the default for FCP – the audio is incorrect for your seg settings.“They are 32 bit instead of 24 bit for some unknown reason that has to do with syncing outside of FCP.”
Bullshit- sounds like ass covering to me – it is a simple settings adjustment – A GOOD lab will give you files as you REQUEST, they have something half assed set up for Avid and are giving you the same in FCP and just changing the codec.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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