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FINAL CUT -QUICKTIME color (Gamma?) shift
I’ve seen several threads talking about similar issues, but haven’t found a particular solution to my problem.
I’m using FCP Studio 3. Working on an HP-LP2475w monitor, plugged directly to my mac. I’m working on video captured from a Canon EOS Mark II 5D. The original footage was converted using the Apple Pro-Res Codec and edited in FCP.
Now, I’m finishing my project, ready to color correct, but notice that whenever I export something to QT, either using the ProRes or H264 codecs, the video in QT looks way darker than what it should be.
-My monitor is calibrated with a spyder.
-If I switch to the NTSC (1953) profile the problem still persists.
-The only way to have the 2 programs (FC & QT) show the same color is using the RGB Generic Profile for my monitor and telling Quicktime to DISABLE the Final Cut color compatibility. By this time any color on the screen looks awful though.
-I have tried exporting the QT in different ways and used compressor with the setting suggested in different threads here to no avail.
-What I find odd is that the exported files look as they look inside FC if I preview them through the VLC player.This last point makes me think that QT is doing something weird to the way it should interpret the Gamma values. It makes everything so dark.
Sorry if this has been discussed already, I have spent several hours in forums but have yet to find a good solution.
Any suggestion is highly welcomed.
Thank you.
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18 Replies
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You can’t judge this properly without a capture device and a properly calibrated monitor.
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"You can't judge this properly without a capture device and a properly calibrated monitor"1. If I understand you correctly, my camera records directly on flash cards, I just transfer files from the card to my computer. Hence I don’t need a capture device.
2. My monitor was calibrated 3 weeks ago with an external hardware calibrating tool.I don’t have a broadcast monitor, but my guess is that if the monitor is the issue I should expect FCP and QT to show files that are both off, but also consistent.
In my case the QT files are looking a lot darker than the FC. At the same time the VLC player shows the same files looking identical to what FCP shows.
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“Capture device”, as in an HD capture card from AJA, Black Magic, Matrox, etc. Your camera is not a capture device, it’s a camera, you could call it an acquisition device.
“Calibrated monitor”, as in a broadcast monitor, connected to your capture card, not a computer monitor.
You need to evaluate your picture on in the proper color space, a capture card & monitor provide that color space, a computer monitor does not.
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
https://www.arniepix.com/ -
[Mauricio Arango] “1. If I understand you correctly, my camera records directly on flash cards, I just transfer files from the card to my computer. Hence I don’t need a capture device. “
1) A capture device also allows output to a monitor. Without one, you will never get an accurate signal out of FCP. When using proper output hardware, the proper color space and gamma gets sent out the baseband video signal to a monitor that understands that signal and displays it properly. Straight DVI or display port out of fcp does not provide this proper signal. So yes, you need a ‘capture’ device meaning an input output device. You will then need to send that to a monitor that understands what to do with that signal. The only computer monitor that I know that can do that is the HP Dreamcolor (one of which i have and it’s awesome).
2) See #1
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Mauricio, I don’t have an answer to your question but felt like chiming in after reading some of the responses – I’ve faced them myself from time to time. Why is that whenever someone poses a question about gamma or color or anything related to picture quality, people automatically fire back with the ol’ “you should never judge what you see without a properly calibrated monitor” and ‘therefore that’s your problem’ response. We’re not idiots! We know what we see, and if we’ve been monitoring off the same device for any period of time, we know what’s not right. That’s not say, in my case, that I would ever finalize a project with an uncalibrated monitor. I’m just an editor. The lab can do the color correcting. But your query, Mauricio, seems simple enough – that QT appears to be playing your image dark, and that VLC plays it better – in accordance with how it looks in FCP. Why? (I find this quite odd, because for me, VLC plays it lighter (not having the 2.2 (?) gamma correction setting that QT does)). Strange…
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Thanks Chris for your kind reply.
I don’t do this professionally, but I understand that what you get out of a calibrated broadcast monitor cannot compare to what you see on a regular LCD computer display and that this is the only way to go when you are producing broadcast material.
Still it baffles me to think that apple would produce a product so tightly integrated with QT and that works properly only under such demanding work conditions. Does this mean that if you install FC on a computer your QT’s will never look like what you see on FC, unless you hook up a very expensive video system to it? I find that hard to stomach.
Anyways, I’m not here to debate one thing or the other. To me is clear I have a problem on my work flow and that FC and QT are not talking to each other correctly. By now my only practical solution is to continue watching my exported clips via VLC.
I have attached an image of how things compare among FC and the 2 players in mention if anyone wants to look at it.
Thanks for all the feedback.
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[Christopher McDonell] “Why is that whenever someone poses a question about gamma or color or anything related to picture quality, people automatically fire back with the ol’ “you should never judge what you see without a properly calibrated monitor” and ‘therefore that’s your problem’ response. We’re not idiots! “
Of course not. No one called anyone an idiot.
It’s simple in it’s complexity. The image you are getting out of the FCP DVI connection is not the proper color space and gamma and is an approximation of what your image really looks like.
The computer monitor that is dipalying this image is full range RGB and probably 1.8 gamma if it’s on a mac that’s not snow leopard, most video is usually SMPTE range YUV. It’s that easy.
[Christopher McDonell] ” that QT appears to be playing your image dark, and that VLC plays it better – in accordance with how it looks in FCP. Why?”
FOr the exact same reasons as above.
[Christopher McDonell] “Strange…”
It’s not really. You wouldn’t watch a movei with sun glasses on would you? No, you’d take them off so you can see it displayed properly and not forced through a different color space or tint or nd filter.
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[Mauricio Arango] “I don’t do this professionally, but I understand that what you get out of a calibrated broadcast monitor cannot compare to what you see on a regular LCD computer display and that this is the only way to go when you are producing broadcast material. “
If you don’t do this professionally, then this makes sense. In order to professional results out of FCP, you need a professional monitoring system. If not, then you won’t get the expected results. I’m sorry if you don’t believe me or anyone else on this forum, but in my experience, it’s the way FCP works. that’s why almost every other NLE is sold with hardware. FCP is not, but cheap hardware can be had to monitor FCP properly. It’s that simple.
[Mauricio Arango] “Still it baffles me to think that apple would produce a product so tightly integrated with QT and that works properly only under such demanding work conditions.”
This shouldn’t be that baffling. When looking at other NLEs look at how many of them are sold with hardware.
[Mauricio Arango] “Does this mean that if you install FC on a computer your QT’s will never look like what you see on FC, unless you hook up a very expensive video system to it? I find that hard to stomach. “
Really? Why?
[Mauricio Arango] ” To me is clear I have a problem on my work flow and that FC and QT are not talking to each other correctly.”
Yes, they are and yes they do. You can search this forum for thread after thread of QT gamma issues. Before Snow Leopard the MAc OS used a 1.8 native gamma setting to make QT images brighter on computer monitors. FInally in Snow leopard, we now have 2.2 gamma out of quicktime, but it doesn’t mean we are totally out of the water yet.
I’m sorry Mauricio, it’s the way of video, not just FCP. You need professional equipment to get a professional result. A cost effective computer LCD monitor is not an accurate monitor, and quicktime is not going to display your work accurately on the computer monitor due to the signal it sends upon display. When attached to hardware, QT is forced to send the proper signal which is then displayed properly on a video monitor. The HP Dreamcolor can be configured to work with video, but you need to send it a proper video signal, not just a DVI signal out of your computer.
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Jeremy,
Thank you for all the explanations. Not all the technicalities are completely clear to me but I get the importance of using broadcast monitors for final color corrections.
I raised my issue because every once in a while I work on some video projects -I mentioned before that I’m not a video/film professional- and this is the first time that I notice that FC and QT don’t show agreeable results, even if they were off as a whole.
I recently installed FC Studio 3 and I’m working on Leopard (10.5.x) so I thought I was missing a setting that would make FC and QT talk nicely to each other. Although this is also the first time I work with the ProRes codecs.
I think I’m going to rent a monitor for 1 or 2 days and an external card. Thank you for everything!
M. -
Mauricio,
I couldn’t agree with you more. The Quicktime gamma thing is a huge problem for using Quicktime for internet or computer display of video.
Why? Even if you get your own computer sorted out (I use OS Leopard, and set my monitor to 1.8 gamma for viewing and displaying QT), no one else who uses Quicktime has this sorted out and one never knows what they are seeing.
Ironically, Apple was ahead of the curve with “Color Sync”, or using ICC profiles to characterize the computer display and talk to other applications (look how flawlessly Photoshop handles this issue now, for users who understand Photoshop!). Finally Safari uses ICC profiles to display web still images.
Unfortunately, Quicktime doesn’t tag the video with gamma and white point, and doesn’t (I guess until Snow Leopard) even consult the monitor ICC profile tag. And I don’t know what the heck Quicktime does on Windows or iPhones.
Finally, I’ve noticed significant gamma shifts when converting from one codec to another and playing in the same Quicktime player software.
I guess what all this means is that for color correction, an output card/device and broadcast monitor are the only way to be sure you are seeing the correct gamma and color using FCP. If your FCP window and / or your Quicktime player match pretty close to your broadcast monitor, you’ve got the settings in the computer monitor gamma about right and other Quicktime preferences set ok. But you still will have no way to know how other computers without calibrated displays and Quicktime or gamma settings will display your video.
The closest you’ll get in this world is to standardize your workflow to the broadcast monitor and use the broadcast monitor like the sRGB color space is used as a web standard for still images.
But perhaps we over react to this whole concept. What audience will be viewing our final product on a professionally calibrated HD broadcast monitor? Practically no one!
Every consumer display has so many image enhancements and white point choices that this whole thing is like shooting an arrow in the air and we have to learn not to care where it lands.
Varicam/Steadicam Owner
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.brucealangreene.com
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