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X to the rescue again…
Interesting new story on FCP.co about more top tier Hollywood FCP X stuff – this time in the 360VR space.
Quote that caught my eye…
“When we were working on the Fast & Furious ride for Universal Studios and we needed something very fast on set to do editorial, I went back and tested it and was blown away by the performance and the footage it could handle as we were working in 5K RED Raw.So when VR started, I once again went through testing and FCPX just sailed through stuff that other programs just chugged on. We’re cutting 8k native on a few generations ago iMac and it just handles it without a problem.”
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20 Replies
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[Bill Davis] “So when VR started, I once again went through testing and FCPX just sailed through stuff that other programs just chugged on. We’re cutting 8k native on a few generations ago iMac and it just handles it without a problem.””
B.S., I don’t buy this for a second. It’s not magic, and FCPX may have access to APIs and other tricks that normal apps don’t have (given that it’s Apple’s own OS), but it cannot outshine everything to the level of 8k native over everything else. I think this is highly exaggerated, or phrased in such a way that the specifics wouldn’t be as impressive as saying “8k native”.
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Have a hard time buying 8k native on a imac, especially “a few generations old”.
Benn on much more capable systems that stutter with 4k RAW.
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Well, all this really means is that somebody (from the article attribution, a pro working at high levels of the industry) felt comfortable writing those words and posting them in a very highly trafficked public forum. You are totally free to doubt them. But you have to accept that somebody was willing to put their professional reputation behind what they wrote. This stuff travels far and is pretty permanent. If you know others who have different experiences or gotten different results – they should write up something saying so. Publicly post the alternate view and let users judge for themselves. Currently, my personal experiences line up with the “on a solid system, X works significantly smoother than I expected” camp. That’s all.
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He was talking about 8K Nokia Ozo files which are 10 bit apparently, but may not be as processor intensive as you would expect.
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[Gary Huff] “B.S., I don’t buy this for a second…it cannot outshine everything to the level of 8k native over everything else. I think this is highly exaggerated, or phrased in such a way that the specifics wouldn’t be as impressive as saying “8k native”
You are correct. While the FCPX playback engine is vastly faster than Premiere on 4k H264 content it is not nearly fast enough to edit native 8K H264 content smoothly — without other compensating factors.
The answer is probably in a several phrases from the article, and understanding what cameras and codecs were used.
Two VR cameras are shown:
(1) Jaunt VR prototype which used 14 GoPros. GoPros record 4k in highly compressed H264.
(2) 8K Nokia OZO, which uses eight 2k sensors and a JPG2000 codec. This not not a long GOP or interframe codec, so each frame is coded independently that makes decoding and playback much easier.
I once again went through testing and FCPX just sailed through stuff that other programs just chugged on….I was working with proxies in FCPX as you would with any large format project.”
If he means testing on a “several generations old iMac”, of course FCPX using is a lot faster than other editors on that same hardware if using its built-in proxy support.
However there’s no magic there. FCPX — despite its efficiency — cannot smoothly edit multiple streams of 4K H264 on a top-spec new iMac 27 without using proxy, and certainly cannot edit 8K H264 smoothly. It can edit those smoothly using proxy, OR if the codec is lightweight — as in JPG2000.
The article said even after they conformed to the original 8K content for color correction, it was still fast. That may be answered by the statement:
“Once it had rendered, it played in real time.”
Of course it is fast once it’s rendered in the timeline — Premiere is fast also when you render the timeline. The problem is you can’t keep the timeline rendered while editing. So this really says nothing.
FCPX is very fast, most people know that, but there’s no magic that enables it to edit H264 camera-native 8K on an iMac. It can do this if (a) The codec is easier or (b) If using proxy.
If you pre-render the timeline to then demonstrate how smoothly it scrubs, yes that works up until you start doing real work. The article may have helped to correct the misimpression that an iMac can’t edit VR using FCPX, but there’s no magic ability to handle camera-native 8K without other offsetting factors.
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[Joe Marler] “FCPX is very fast, most people know that, but there’s no magic that enables it to edit H264 camera-native 8K on an iMac. It can do this if (a) The codec is easier or (b) If using proxy.”
To me the “magic” is that due to the way X designed you essentially never NEED to directly edit 8k camera native files.
The entire purpose of the “pointer switching” nature of the X workflow is that you can do ALL your editorial work on a resolution your system can best handle (with excellent screen representations – fine for everything up to and often including – via ProRes Optimized Media – grading work) and only when the editing is complete, apply ALL that editorial metadata directly to your Original Media with a simple switch. Bingo. Same result as if it had all been on-line – but with tremendously less system and human stress.
For the VAST majority of editors, there’s less and less need to spend hours work directly with original media anymore. What the editor often needs instead, IMO, is super quick ACCESS to the Originals for judgement calls – when and if required.. As long as you can safely and consistently make critical decisions about what you’re seeing – you’re good. Particularly in regards to editorial flow.
I know this runs counter to the old days where proxies were pale comparisons to what was going to end up on the screen. But I simply don’t think that’s where we are anymore.
The article author seemed to be delighted precisely because he got exactly what he needed. A workflow where he got to quickly work with what he wanted – when he wanted it.
And isn’t this is the same path Premier Pro is headed toward? As I understand it, they made a pretty big deal some months back about introducing their own, more integrated proxy workflow. So that Apple went there nearly 5 years ago shouldn’t be particularly controversial anymore. Nobody smart copies bad ideas.
Metadata-based editing – which every NLE more or less does – has changed everything.
Including the need to think “on-line” ALL the time – or you’re not making progress toward your final.
FWIW.
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I don’t mind using proxy files for editing. When it comes to color grading I prefer to point back to the raw files. The only thing that I have to consider is if I need to work in Fusion and my understanding it is best to go with uncompressed not raw. I might not understand the best approach so any feedback is much appreciated. Unless the render time is slow or choppy playback occurs I try to work with the native format.
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And then there’s this guy, editing 6K RAW (not H.264…so there’s that) with Premiere Pro. OH, and on a $15,000 computer…not something we all can afford.
https://vashivisuals.com/6-below-editing-in-6k/
[Bill Davis] “To me the “magic” is that due to the way X designed you essentially never NEED to directly edit 8k camera native files. “
Nor do you on Avid…or Premiere…or Resolve…They all have proxy modes. Avid actually pioneered it. So, with that argument, they are all “magic.” I’m cutting proxy on Avid right now…
But I will give you that the proxy creation, and relink, is pretty slick and quick. A bit easier and more error free than Avid. But really….this isn’t revolutionary.
Shane
Little Frog Post
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Although I REALLY do have to say that every editing software has it’s sweet spot, and it’s weaknesses. If FCX was able to do something that Avid would have taken FOREVER to do (and in that situation, I have no doubt it would have) or that would have been tricky with Premiere (proxy workflow not NEARLY as slick as…well..anything really. Proxy is new to Premiere, that used to think that Native workflows were the bomb!)
Just yanking on a chain here…
Shane
Little Frog Post
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[Shane Ross] “…Premiere…or Resolve…They all have proxy modes.”
The current version of Premiere CC does not have any built-in proxy mode. In fact Adobe’s Premiere CC intro video still says: “allows editors to work with 4k and beyond, without time-consuming transcoding”, and “never needing to render until your work is complete”:
This worked fine on 1080p but on H264 4K, it’s no longer “mercury quick”.
Fortunately Adobe now sees the need for a built-in proxy mode and this will be added in a future version of Premiere.
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