[Todd Terry]

[Richard Herd] “Why is the “indie market” so bent on digital acquisition?”

Well, it pretty much comes down to money, ease/speed, and ability… pretty much in that order, I think.

On a big-budget feature shoot, the cost isn’t really a factor… they will literally spend more in a day on craft services than they do on raw filmstock. However, in the low-budget and indie world, of course, those aren’t just film frames flying past the gate at 24 frames a second, they are nickles, dimes… and dollars. When an hour’s worth of digital tape is just a few bucks and just over three minutes of 35mm is a couple of hundred bucks (before lab and telecine) for a low-budget or no-budget project it’s a no-brainer.

Secondly, shooting electronic is fast and easy. Well… not really (at least not if you do it well), but compared to shooting film it definitely is. And it’s definitely faster… and of course time is money. Everything from having to reload mags every 400 feet to the requirements of double-system sound simply makes film many times more complex than video.

And thirdly… shooting film? A lot of people simply don’t know how to do it. There certainly is a tremedous amount of skill involved in shooting a great-looking electronic production… but at least you have the benefit of being able to instantly see what you are doing… if it doesn’t look great, work on it until it does. Real cinematography, however, is truly an art… and the ability to craft, design, and light a great-looking scene without being able to see the actual result until at least the next day’s rushes (and usually longer) is becoming something of a lost talent. Which is a shame.

I’m an old film guy… I’ve shot a few zillion feet in my day, and for years I insisted on shooting even low-budget mom-and-pop commercials on 35mm… and still nothing can quite match the look, not even RED. But… it’s getting very very close, and in more and more cases the time/ease/affordability of electronic outweigh celluloid. The film vs. video argument comes up every now and then on another cinematography forum I belong to, and there are some very old schoolers there who just refuse to accept digital aquisition as even a poor substitute for real film. And God bless ’em, I appreciate their passion for it. However, like it or not the digital train is pulling out of the station, and those old timers are going to be forced to either jump on board, or wave goodbye to it as it is pulling away… because it is definitely going.

All that being said… I still advocate shooting film, if only to learn how to do it. Since starting to shoot a lot more DoF-converted HD, these days my film cameras haven’t seen much action in quite a few months… however, being a competent cinematographer has made me a much better director and DP on electronic projects.

Education is never a waste.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

Ah… well then you gotta do what you gotta do.

Pity, that sure would have freed up a nice little chunk for the production budget.

It is surprising though… here in the states the electronic prints have become the festival standard. A couple of years ago even Sundance required them and wouldn’t even take real film prints… although they changed that after some backlash.

I have a feeling the transition will hit the festivals in your area eventually too… probably sooner rather than later. But sadly not soon enough to save you the cash on this one.

As for particularities and specs one of the best info sources for the technicalities would be whatever production house is going to actually strike the film print. There are so many variables involved and different ways that differenty companies work that over here the film houses strongly suggest meeting with them before production (one in particular practically begs producers to do that) to work out all the bugs and the exact optimal workflow chain.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

I know it wasn’t one of your original questions, but curiosity has gotten the better of me… and I can’t help but wonder why you need a 35mm print.

You say it’s a short, so the outlet there usually means festivals. Just about every festival now will take electronic prints over real film… some prefer them over film… some even require them and won’t even take celluloid.

Furthermore, you say this is a low-budget project… and striking a film print is wildly expensive. Not sure how much it would be for a short (or how long your project is), but striking a single digital-to-film print for a feature-length project can run in the $40,000-$50,000 neighborhood… or more.

It could be that you have very legitimate reasons for needing the 35mm print, and have to strike one. But I would just encourage you to take a hard look to see if you really really need one. If not, that sure could free up a lot of dough to pour into the budget and kick up the production values a notch… such as a bigger lighting budget to help with your night-shooting concerns (especially with the extremely light-hungry Letus).

Just a thought…

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

[walter biscardi] “Hmm, that’s interesting. Our bank gave us a line of credit on the spot pretty much after having an account with them for about three years.”

You must have had a better bank, Walter!… ours didn’t seem to care much about helping us (or getting more of our business).

We should probably try again, with a different bank. We have several banks now that are our commercial clients… some gigantic, some small… maybe should hit one of them up about a credit line. In fact, one of our bank clients has told us they would easy breezy steamroll through a mortgage on a new studio facility we are considering… so I’m betting they would be more receptive. They are a hometown entirely locally-owned bank… not the jumbo conglomerate bank we were dealing with before.

Guess it depends on who you know.

Fortunately I think we know a lot more of the right people now, maybe we’ll give it another shot. Cash flow always helps.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

Ahh I see…

Thanks, Mick… was afraid that was the secret.

My house is in the clear and I could have used it as security… just not interested in mixing the personal/corporate world there too much since I’m not the sole shareholder of the corporation.

Thanks…

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

Hey Mick…

Just curious, how did you secure your credit line?

I persued that a few years ago with zero luck. It was with the bank we have been dealing with for years, have banked with them forever, maintain a pretty healthy balance with them, had a previous loan repaid to them (early), have an excellent credit rating, and had really high accounts receivables on the books from reliable and well-paying clients… yet the bank was absolutely less than interested in even discussing a line of credit with us.

We were hoping to get a line of credit secured by either our capital equipment and/or accounts receivable just to improve cash flow during a time we were doing a lot of long-term projects that we had to wait to send invoices on. The only thing the bank would even halfway consider though was a credit line secured by me personally with my house… and I was not going to do that… while I am the majority stockholder of our company I do have a partner, and wasn’t eager to personally have to secure the line of credit with my house for the corporation’s benefit.

Any secrets on how you made that happen?

Thanks…..

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

[walter biscardi] “included a “Change of Plans” clause that essentially stated that if they change their minds or the project gets cancelled at any point, then I don’t get paid for any work done to that point.”

I think I’ve had clients before that always just sorta “assumed” that was the case, as insane as it might sound. Those are due for an education.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

Hey Trip, just a thought….

I’d completely forgotten that I have an unused K-3 kit sitting on a shelf somewhere. I bought it about 10 years ago as a B-cam on a whim, but moved pretty much exclusviely to 35mm before I ever even used it once. It was new then (well, new-old-stock, never used) and pretty complete (Krasnogorsk-3 body, zoom lens, lens hood, pistol grip, shoulder brace, carrying case, and a few non-descript mystery filters).

I never get rid of anything… but I’d probably let it go pretty reasonably, it’s just taking up space.

If you’re interested in it yell at me off list (don’t wanna turn this board into a swap meet)… click on one of my profile links and you can get contact info.

Film cameras were made to run film, and I’d rather see it in the hands of someone who would actually use it for that… rather than sitting unused.

All that being said, I’m not trying to push you to the K-3… I think you’d be better off and happier with a “real” camera… but if you don’t want to spend much and need something to learn with it might be an option.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

The Filmo was a workhorse back in its day (although that day was a pretty darn long time ago).

You’ll still see them used now every now and then as a crashcam.

If you want to shoot some short shots of wild MOS footage, it’s probably ok to play with… but I wouldn’t consider trying to use one for a serious project.

The downsides to the Filmo would be 1) very noisy, 2) short run times, I’m not sure but probably 30 seconds a pop max, 3) non-reflex, 4) limited I believe to C-mount lenses.

Also, a Filmo of course is regular 16mm, and you initially specifically said you were looking for s16mm. I seriously doubt a Filmo could be converted to s16mm, and no one would probably ever attempt to do that since the conversion would cost many times as much as the camera is worth.

If you are just looking for a cheap wind-up camera, the K-3 is probably a better choice. You’d still have the same issues of noise and short run times, but at least most of those already come with what is actually a pretty darn good lens for the money. K-3’s can be converted to super 16mm, although it’s a little pricey (s16mm conversion of a regular 16mm camera requires a lot more than just puttiing in an s16mm gate… that’s the easy part… they also require re-centering the lens which is the much tougher and more expensive part).

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Todd Terry]

I can’t really speak to the Kinor’s usability as a sound camera with a lot of authority…. actually I haven’t used the Kinor 16mm… unfortunately all of my Russian camera experience has been with the 35mm Konvas and Kinors.

My guess is that it probably can be, if done with care… even though strictly speaking it is a MOS camera. BUT, most of these cameras do run fairly quietly, and most have crystal-controlled motors as either standard or as an option. I have used my 35mm Konvas 7M on countless sound shoots. It’s not totally silent by any means, but especially for exteriors it has never posed any sound problems at all. For interiors, it’s a bit more work, but I’ve always been able to solve the issues with good camera and microphone placement, or use noise sampling/reduction tools such as ProTools or Adobe Audition to remove the camera sound. A few times in a very live and small room the camera sound could not be completely eliminated… in those cases I record a clean take just for audio imediately after the camera take, and use VocAlign to create a perfectly clean looped track that syncs with the dirty camera track. People have also created padded barneys for both Konvas and Kinor cameras.

Yes, shooting film can be expensive, cumbersome, and a lot more complicated than shooting video. However, I applaud Trip’s efforts to do so. No one ever became a worse shooter by learning to shoot film first. Quite the opposite. Let’s face it, these days any yahoo with $300 can become a “videographer” (which I still contend is a made-up word). But learning to become a cinematographer and shoot film and shoot it well takes patience, skill, a lot of effort, and a dedication to develop one’s talent. Cinematographers who can shoot killer film can usually shoot great video as well…. but not always (or usually) the other way around.

Film shoots don’t have to be budget busters. I’ve shot countless pretty low-end (budget wise) television commercials even for small mom-and-pop businesses on 35mm… by learning how to do it within their budgets. I do that with maybe $15,000 worth of good camera equipment, not $150,000. I do it by planning and blocking very carefully. I rehearse and don’t waste takes. Sometimes I call “action” before actually pulling the trigger. I tail-slate only good takes. I shop around for filmstock bargains (once we bought 50,000 feet, the entire stock of unused 35mm recans from the third season of The Sopranos, for less than a nickle a foot!). I have a good relationship with a great lab that takes care of us without killing our budgets. It can be done.

That being said… I haven’t shot a frame of film in, oh, probably 18 months. Sadly, since moving to shooting HD with a P+S Technik converter the film cameras haven’t been out of their cases. But, I credit my ability to shoot decent-looking real film with allowing me to shoot and light for DoF-converted HD that still looks like film.

And yep, there is still lots of network television still shot on s16mm. Some of the older stuff (Walker, Texas Ranger anyone?) doesn’t look that great… but watch some of the newer stuff such as My Name is Earl or Scrubs on HD on a good 1080 monitor and the quality will blow you away. And it’s 16mm. And of course the COW’s own Todd McMullen shoots Friday Night Lights on s16mm as well.

Shoot film. You’ll learn a heckuva lot. And it’s fun.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com