Ron Lindeboom
2
COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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[kicki] “First thing that I was asked when I came to that company was – who are my former clients and how many of them can I bring to them.
I’d chalk this up as a lesson…
A company that asks this of you is likely unscupulous and if they would ask this *of* you, then they will be just as apt to do unsavory things *to* you.
This is borne out by your next statement…
[kicki] “Next thing was a “deal” was made that I would be paid more if I brought some new business to them. That also never happened I was paid the same — except one time when I was paid less than I deserved because I spent too many hours and he said it was ‘my opportunity to learn at his facility.’ Sure I spent a lot of hours finishing a piece but … it was the first film that was done DI in our country and he took all the credit for it, not even mentioned my colleague and me who spent 3 months doing cc and visual effects for it.”
This is to be expected when dealing with people of this calibre. Chalk it up to experience and decide if you really want to do business with people like this. If you do, you can expect more of this. If you do not, then read my article “Clients & Grinders” in the library here at the Cow, as it has many points which may save you from some of the inter-personal disasters that might have come your way if you hadn’t read it. I don’t claim that it can save you from all of them but it can help in many cases.
In closing, remember that all of us get cheated sometimes. It is how we react to it that defines our own character and ofter our success or failure. Do not forget that with every successful client you develop, you are sending a message that your former employer’s words are not true and that your words are as good as gold and that your work and work ethic can be counted on.
It may not look like it when you are just starting out but you stand a great chance of developing a stronger company than your former employer — I know, I have done just that. I once got cheated out of a business by a company that had millions to draw on while we had little to fight them with. One day, our company was six-times larger than they were. We did it one client at a time and with nothing more than trying to play straight and do what we believed in.
There are always schmucks in the world, as they say here in America: “Don’t let the bastards get you down.” Be true to yourself and your own beliefs, compete against yourself and strive for doing the best you can do. Let them do what they do. The market will decide who they want to do business with. If you build good, solid inter-personal relationships and never offer an excuse for a missed deadline but do all you can to never miss a deadline and do great work — your story and effort will speak for you and you will succeed.
Oh, and don’t forget: Signs don’t sell anyone. Get out there and make some presentations and do not think that being busy is being profitable — not all jobs are good jobs and some are just “black holes” to push time and resources into.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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It’s not legal. If they do it with your work and anyone gets caught, you will be left holding the bag.
Ron
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Personally, I tend to subscribe to “Leo’s Rule” and have never gone after a client of any company that has sent me work.
This industry is just too small a community and you will lose in the end if you develop a reputation wherein you can’t be trusted when a competitor flips you some work because a) they know your area of expertise and respect you; b) they are too busy and need your help; or, c) they are testing you with a small job to see how your ethics work before they flip you a larger job.
Like Leo says, we are an industry that is built on relationships. Those who can’t and won’t do the steps necessary to build these positive and cross-feeding relationships, are usually those individuals/companies who come and go in this industry. The old-timers in this industry know the importance of the old entertainment industry edict: “It is not what you know, it’s who you know.” It’s still true today. A variant on this might be: “It’s not what you know, it’s who knows you — and knows what they can expect.”
Those who swim with piranhas usually end up bleeding at best or become lunch for bigger piranhas.
Ron Lindeboom
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Hi Chad,
Sorry to throw cold water on your plans but there is no document that will protect you from the legal repercussions of doing a job which you know to be illegal — and if ignorance of the law were the case, even that would not shield you in this situation as ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Contrary to popular fable and Net legend, there is no document or “hold harmless” clause which will release you from legal culpability in this situation.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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[mannfilmz] “Your previous employers call you scum for “stealing” clients. Yeah? Well, how come they do it all the time? Almost every single business owner I know began their business by
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[Charlie King] “My employer in San Diego knew I was leaving and gave me a fond farewell. Two of my clients asked him where I went and he told them. They then brought their business to the desert so I could continue servicing their needs. I never felt in this instance that I had violated a trust. Of course I didn’t actually ask them to follow me.”
Hi Charlie,
This is a far cry different than targeting a former employer’s customer list. I do not see a single unethical thing in what you lay out here and I don’t believe for a second that the scenario you present violates a trust.
The problem arises when an employee knows that they are about to leave — either because they have the desire to leave or may be getting let go for some reason — and they take customer lists and other things that are actually the property of the company they are leaving.
It’s one thing for clients to *want* to follow you because of a relationship they have with you. It is quite another when the relationship is with the company and the former employee targets these clients — which most will not respond to but some will, due to low-ball pricing or other incentives that attract the client.
[Charlie King] “I, along with my former employer, knew if they hadn’t followed me, they would probably have eventually gone somewhere else anyhow since that employer was unable to continue the high quality of service the clients that left were used to receiving without spending a lot of money to upgrade the equipment which he was told was the only way to keep me there.”
Companies that will not invest in their own future or in their employees, are prone to failure anyway — they are playing a defensive war and that never works. If you will not develop new markets and opportunities, then the very ones that were once yours will evaporate eventually.
Best regards, Charlie.
Ron Lindeboom
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[Michael Munkittrick] “Now, far be it from me to claim that I
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[Leo Ticheli] “I am a supporter of everyone who’s ever labored here; they’ve all worked hard and deserve whatever rewards they can earn after they move on.”
I couldn’t agree more.
But…
When a former employee takes the knowledge given them and uses it to target their former employer’s client list — well, then in my book, that’s playing dirty.
There is a big difference between employees growing their own business and those who walk out with the client list and numbers and then use it against their former employer.
I am glad that Kicki made it clear that this was not her new company’s focus, as it appeared to be at first — it makes it a lot easier to offer ideas and assistance to someone starting fresh.
I, for one, would be hesitant to offer anything more than a cautionary tale to someone whose goal was to cannibalize their former employer’s client list.
Your mileage may vary.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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The Trapcode plug-ins are not included with After Effects. They must be purchased separately. They can be found at http://www.trapcode.com
Highly recommended, great stuff.
Ron Lindeboom
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[kicki] “If anyone has the similar experience or some kind of advice how to win the clients back, it would be highly appreciated.”
Hello Kicki,
I realize that this may startle and even offend some people here but these clients are not and were not “yours.” Winning them back is a distortion of the facts. The accounts did belong and do belong to the company you worked for.
Sure, you could focus on trying to take them away from the agency but then you are immediately going to branded as a “scab” company and not many legitimate large clients wish to do business like this.
Why?
It’s a “karma kinda thing.” They see that if you will do stuff like this to your former employer, then what will you do to them when the opportunity arises to cut their throat to your advantage?
I do not mean to be hard and I am truly not trying to insult you, merely give you a picture of the situation from a viewpoint you may not have considered.
You can waste a ton of time, effort and money trying to get these accounts and I will guarantee you that you will be lucky to get one — really lucky. The odds are that you will end up with not a single one.
Build your own business. Don’t ravage someone elses.
Focus on building relationships with companies whom you can serve as you come out of the gate in your new venture. Maybe you won’t be getting rich right away but you won’t be building a reputation as a scab company with whom few will want to do business.
Over time, some of the companies you wish to work with may see your efforts and they will ask for an RFP or a presentation from you — if they do, then pitch them with all the professionalism and intensity you possess. They called and they are now asking. If you go after them right now, you will be building a reputation that will hurt you in the long run and stack the deck against you in a way from which you will likely have little chance to recover.
That’s my two cents, maybe someone else will see it differently…
Ron Lindeboom
creativecow.net