[Richard Mamary]

Once again Eric thanks so much for your time. I’ll hit all your points, but I will stick to the moire first.

I just wanted to check. Did you have a chance to watch it blown up on a large screen? No worries if you can’t. Because, as I’ve mentioned a few times, the moire patterns didn’t bother me much on a 1080p computer monitor. I see it happening slightly in the original footage, but I guess after, down conversion, encoding, and then watching it blown up, (even larger than the original was), is more than any footage can bear. I may still try one test with a moving mask, and see if it helps or is worth the time.

I’m sure that as a pro, the washed out whites, (from the automatic aperture settings), look like the biggest problem. And in an ordinary situation they would be. But this was no ordinary situation. This wasn’t a film shoot at all. I was tagging along with a small relief group, and there were no second takes.

It was a choice to shoot with the automatic aperture. One I made right from the beginning after missing shots. (No excuses, only an explanation.) I was shooting inside a van with this relief team, members of which range from a dark skinned black man, to as white skinned a man as there is! They were also jumping in and out on a moments notice, and had to grab quick shots whenever I could, and missed some shots on the fly, until I ended up setting it to auto. So, as much as I too don’t like how it looks, and would find it un-acceptable in a real film set up, it was the only way I could pan between a conversation inside the van and see both men.

This particular clip I sent you with the moire, I was shooting inside the van and then we turned the corner, I saw the devastation, and I just flipped open the side door, and basically hung outside and just shot with one hand, holding on to the car frame. Nothing I shot was planned, and as I was following them around, again there were never any retakes.

So that said, this unfortunate look, is throughout the project. And, if the video didn’t have such compelling images, and subject matter, I would probably say it was unwatchable. Yet strangely, as it occurs throughout, it adds, (mind you this is an excuse in retrospect!), a certain cinema verite feel to it. At first, horrified at the look, I started trying to muck with CC using keyframes to keep the shots as balanced as I could, and then ended up bailing on the idea, as it would never look quite right, and in fact looked even more artificial. (Cinema un-Verite, if you will!) I also think there is also nothing at all to be done with the shots where the whites are completely washed out, as there is no detail to recover. In fact, it was so unbelievably bright down there, (I guess the direct sun, being so close to the equator), just to be able to see the expressions on the Haitian people, everything else ended up getting washed out. I don’t have a lot of experience shooting dark skinned people, but I have heard that even in the most controlled of environments, it can be a great challenge.

I have ended up coming full circle, and have fully accepted, -embraced if you will, this look. If the whites weren’t washed out, I just wasn’t seeing any faces. And, yes, the subjects too are a little over exposed, so I could make an adjustment. But when I do the blown out whites begin to look strange and un-natural.

Thanks, big time, for the advice on not needing pro services for “down conversion.” I was beginning to think that I maybe I had to go that route. That’s a relief to know. You wrote that “correct” software based conversion, matches a hardware set-up, except for time.

But, to be clear, that doesn’t include DVD encoding too? Isn’t hardware dvd encoding light years better than any software encoding I can do at home? Because, there doesn’t seem to be any way for me to make a 2hr DVD here that looks anything like the pro’s can make. Has this changed? I figured because this piece was under an hour that I would have a shot at making it look decent. But I have seen professionally encoded dvd’s with two hour features, and several hours of extras, that look better than anything I can encode at even half the length. This is just the nature of the business, right?

Before we get to CC, back to my output. Do you think my outputting as (reg) Apple Pro Res 422, not Apple Pro Res 422 (HQ) is an issue at all?
Or, are there better settings, for the pre Compressor output from FCP? I would think it can’t get “out” any better than how it was brought in.

You wrote that the moire issues are just the nature of interlaced video. Yet, the outputted files from FCP say they are progressive?? This may be rhetorical, sa there may be no answer but, are they, or aren’t they?! I am confused. Are they actually interlaced? The original video is supposed to be 720p, again albeit “lite,” (with every other frame of the 60fps a duplicate.) Is it because FCP can’t deal with AVCHD lite, that it forces a workflow in 29.97, which has to be interlaced? (BTW, I don’t expect you to know the answer to this, as AVCHD lite is not a common format. And, I have tried to get these answers before, spending hours and hours on the net. I’m not sure anyone knows…)
Before importing into FCP, I followed all the instructions I could find, and yet never really understood exactly what happened. Everything I could find just said it would have to be worked at 29.97.

So finally, you say applying CC will help a lot. But, I am assuming you mean for the over all look, and not as a fix for the moire-ing, right?

Some of these exposure fluctuations go from over bright, to over dark, before the auto aperture adjusts properly. (Say a pan from the white to the black guy inside the van.) Neither situation corrects well, as there is no detail in those over blacks, or blown out whites, to bring back. I was frustrated for a while trying to fix this, but gave up, and began accepting it.

Without seeing all the footage, do you feel comfortable telling me that I am I wrong in this thinking? Because, if I am not going to try and fix all the aperture fluctuations throughout, do you still think I should CC shots like the one above, and take the hit on how strange the blown out whites become? I can apply CC like that throughout, without trying to completely balance all the wild aperture fluctuations, but again bailed on it all, and decided on that verite look.

Once again thanks a bunch! And, Happy 4th!

[Richard Mamary]

Hey Eric, thanks again. And, no worries at all on when you get around to watching it. I am thankful to be getting all the help you’ve already given me, even though I am still flumoxed. I hope you have had plenty of rest when you read this, because I am wired up! Even though this whole thing is starting to wind down…

When/if you get to watch the TS on a big screen, hopefully you will see these strobing, (again I do not know what to call them!) patterns in the parts of the frame I circled in this screenshot I posted above and again here,
https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5862/badmoirepatternsinmovem.jpg
as well as in other places in this clip. I really want them fixed quite badly, but am also open to many-a-pro telling me that I should forget it and just move on. Though, I am far from there yet…

Seeing as we may now be in agreement, that I already have as decent an encode from my original footage, that I can make on my own, then perhaps I only have two options left. One being Joe’s, from above, (which I am curious what you think about that), and the other, being to have to go back to FCP.

Perhaps there is some kind of filter or blur that I could apply to those problem areas, which would be a bit insane, as I would have to create a mask over each of them, (e.g. the window frames), add a blur/filter of some sort, and then frame by frame move the mask until each of these offending areas are no longer in frame. Because I could never apply it to the whole image. That could take me, as I am far from an expert a really long time to do.

I have seen some guys wacking away on their FCP keyboards, editing at speeds that gals in the proverbial secretarial pool, would envy. No, I am not one of those, more of a peck, peck guy, unfortunately.

I don’t even know if my masking/blurring scheme would work, (do you?) But, I am guessing that those kind of anomalous patterns can only show up, (and probably are a, “to be expected,” though disagreeable phenomena), when some distinct parallel lines are present. Is this a good guess? So if the lines were less distinct, -blurred if you will, -then the strobing couldn’t occur. Right? Or, if I had a professionals access to the hardware encoders out there, would it all look great, and I wouldn’t have to worry about the strobes? But, more on that in a minute.

Anyway, as to your last suggestion regarding progressive flags, I went in and changed the Output Fields from “Same as Source,” to Progressive, but not only did both m2v versions look the same, but my MediaInfo application reported that in both of them, the Scan Type was, “Progressive.”

The only other thing that I didn’t do, was when I exported from FCP, I used Current Settings. Current settings were again Apple Pro Res 422, not Apple Pro Res 422 (HQ). I did export a short clip in each format to compare them, but I really couldn’t see a difference except in the file size.
Do you think that this is important?

Finally, once you see the TS Vid, perhaps you could also let me know whether you think Joe’s idea, using a professional DVD encoding service to do a hardware down conversion, would make a significant difference. He didn’t respond to my initial request for a ballpark figure of what it might cost, but I am curious. In addition to the digi-beta master he said they would give me an 8-bit uncompressed anamorphic file, which I can then compress to mpeg2. Is that something I can’t do with FCP? I do have other export options, such as this custom, Uncompressed 8-bit NTSC 48kHz 1280×720.

Would that downscale out of FCP be a better starting point than the Apple Pro Res 422, I have been using? And again do you think using the Apple Pro Res 422 (HQ) would be that different than Apple Pro Res 422?

Finally, finally, would full out pro encoding, or the hardware down conversion Joe mentioned, ultimately be the only things, (perhaps other than my masking scheme), that would make the difference in all this strobing? And would the overall quality be that improved?

Or, triple finally, with what I have, would pro encoding not make the huge difference and be worth the money, and I would probably get a better result with my insane masking idea?

I appreciate all your help, as again I am running out of options here, the time frame is closing, and overall this thing has to come to a final conclusion. No worries, as I know this is a holiday weekend, darn it!

All The Best,
Richard

[Richard Mamary]

Hi Eric,

And, thanks again. So did you see the flickering, moire-ing (whatever) in the building windows on your DVD player? (I realize now that I should have set it to loop. Next time.) And, what is this flickering phenomena rightly called? Does it have a name?

Arrggghhh….I hate 30p! I believe you have a 30p file. You still dont indicate how you encoded the piece? Progressive or interlaced.

I believe it is 30p too. My understand back in January was in order to be able to import & edit AVCHD with FCP, it has to be at the 29.97 frame rate. Which seemed dreadful to me too at the beginning, assuming I was starting with a form of 720p. Though, my understanding was that even as it was supposedly recording 60frames, it was merely duplicated every other frame.

Now, as to how I encoded it?
Progressive, or interlaced…
I am not sure where I would have chosen this option. In FCP? Compressor? And if so, where? I am looking.

In FCP, I can’t see any options other than Export QT…

Click on Current Setting pulldown to change…

Select: Apple Pro Res 422 (HQ) 1280×720 30p 48 kHz

And the end result look pretty identical to when I just choose current settings, except the file is much larger. My media info application still indicates it is 29.97, even though I clearly chose 30p. Is that just how it works?

I also can’t find any program for OSX to analyze the file and tell me if it is progressive or interlaced. Do you know of one?

The only other option off the FCP timeline is for QT conversion. (I know I am being major redundant here, but maybe I missed something?)

The only reasonable option here is for QT movie, right?

And once in there here are the options:

And the if I click on Settings, the obvious choice is again:

And even if I change the frame rate there to 30, the exported file’s MediaInfo still says it’s 29.97!

Also, in Compressor, I do not see any choices for Progressive or Interlace either.
Can you walk/talk me through. What am I missing?

[Richard Mamary]

Eric, I didn’t find this latest post of yours at first, because it wasn’t at the bottom of the page, as it ended up above my previously last post… So, my actual reply to this post of yours will be made at the bottom, (technically replying to my own last post), just to keep these in order…
That way if you are not notified of the entire thread, and only responses to your replies, you will now know I posted again, even though it was only to myself… So look below! (Man that’s wordy.)

[Richard Mamary]

Here is a link to download a zipped folder containing, a 17 sec. Apple Pro Res 422 QT mov, and a TS Folder, of the same, encoded by Compressor at above settings, and muxed by DVDSP.

https://d01.megashares.com/index.php?d01=6acc5d5

If you are unfamiliar with the site. When you get there, click the Regular Download, not the High Speed link.

That will bring you to this page where you will be prompted to, “Enter the passport reactivation code in the graphic, then hit the “Reactivate Passport” button.

Now the file is ready for download.

Hopefully it will all go smoothly, un-zip well, and play. Hopefully…

[Richard Mamary]

Thanks again Eric, and the journey continues…

First, do you think that the actual dip in quality, as per the screen shots I uploaded before, is an acceptable loss?

Now the details. The footage was shot in AVCHD lite. FCP doesn’t play nice with this format so it has to be converted. So, following the advice at the time, it was imported in FCP 7 as, Apple Pro Res 422, through, “Log and Transfer.” I then dropped one of the imported clips onto the default sequence and clicked “YES,” when I received this prompt.

FCP would now change the projects sequence settings, (I think my previous default sequence setting was for DV-NTSC), appropriately for the transferred clips.
Here is the Sequence Settings:

So, I worked with these settings, and as I reported before when exporting, used “Current Settings,” leaving unchecked, “Make Movie Self Contained.”

Then, I imported that file into Compressor, and, (thank you), used these settings, and submitted it to my local Cluster:

As I wrote in my most-lengthy last post with screen shots, the picture degradation has become the least of my problems as this flickering/moire-ing, (what would be the correct term?), in the windows with the slats, is now far more grievous than anything else.

The video begins with a 2 minute, hand held, (I know that can’t be helpful), tracking shot down a particularly devastated street in Port-au-Prince, set to a beautiful original soundtrack. This opening shot really sets the whole tone for the piece. As it just goes on and on, it drops the viewer in to the closest thing they will experience to what it feels like being there. (At least that is what I’ve been told!) With this crazy flickering happening in the shot, it just ruins the whole effect of being transported in.

I should mention that when I first started this thread, (thinking it was the apparent quality loss in the DVD version that was most distressing), this flickering, or moire-ing, [what’s the right word?], didn’t look so awful played through Apple’s DVD Player or VLC on my Mac’s 24″ 1080p monitor. It wasn’t until I actually burned it to disk and played it on a 46″ HDTV that it looked absolutely horrendous. It could be that this was just a combination of one DVD player and one HDTV, but I can’t rest on Hope. It will be a real bummer if it can’t be fixed.

I know I am a broken record, at this point, but once again, thank you so much again for your help. So, I will now export a short clip of the opening tracking sequence as a self contained movie at the current settings, Apple Pro Res 422, and then encode that to m2v using the same settings as above with Compressor, mux that into a TS Folder with DVDSP, zip them both up, upload to a file sharing site, and post the link.

So, you may have to watch the TS Folder played on both a big screen HDTV, as well as a computer monitor, to see this play out. I will get this uploaded tonight…

[Richard Mamary]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for jumping in. I doubt at the moment that we can afford to use a finishing house. It’s a documentary covering a small groups relief efforts, I shot in Haiti right after the quake, and there is basically no money in it, at the moment. A labor of love, if you will.
But, can you tell me approximately what I could expect to pay for the services you mentioned on a 53 minute video?

Also, Eric, Joe et al,
(Getting this all together took longer than I thought it would!)
As the screenshots are large, I am uploading them through imageshack. Once the page loads, click them to enlarge for the full size. (Before I took the screenshots, I blew them up to full screen on my 1080p monitor, as that is how they will likely be upscaled on a viewer/judges 1080p HDTV.)

It seems as though the real problem may be more with movement, than anything. More on that below.

After preparing these screen shots, it seems that except for the “stat cards,” where I really wanted to use red, or yellow in the fonts, (see Fig. 1 https://img808.imageshack.us/img808/4928/statisticsheetcompared.jpg), for the most part the video stills from the m2v look like they have a reasonable reduction in quality, compared to the original QT video files. (See Fig. 2 https://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8974/scottscreenshot.jpg)
Please let me know if you think I could get more out of this encode.

However, it is becoming very clear to me that the really big problem is more in the playback, with moire patterns flickering badly on tracking shots that have horizontal lines in particular, that make the dvd version look so grievous. (See Fig. 3 https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5862/badmoirepatternsinmovem.jpg)

And this is particularly grievous when watching the dvd on a 46″ 1080p HDTV through a DVD player. Also, this moire-ing (if that is the right name for it), doesn’t appear as bad when the dvd is played using Apples DVD player, or VLC on my 1080p, 24″ Samsung monitor that I use with my computer.

Would it be helpful if I make and upload both a: TS FOLDER; and the comparable QT mov, of this moire-ing clip? Again, thank you so much for your time…

It is really all this flickering, (that you can’t see from a still), that is so utterly distracting, that just takes the viewer away from the images and story. At this point, I can certainly live with any other hit in the quality.

[Richard Mamary]

I will put together a couple of screen shots and post them along with my settings tomorrow morning.

Thanks again so much for all your help…

[Richard Mamary]

At this point, I am not so sure that there is a best way to down convert.

Because so far, from this experience in the end results, I can’t see any visual difference in quality between the two m2v Compressor encodes I made:
One, from a QT reference movie, (at Current Settings, 720p); and,
Two, the Anamorphic version that I exported from FCP, (as per your instructions.)
And, both of them wanted natively to play squished, (vertically), on my old DVD player, upscaled to a 1080p HDTV.
I had to make the “picture size” adjustment on the HDTV to see the correct aspect ratio. (This surprised me.) Perhaps the Anamorphic setting would only come into play when seen with a 4:3 TV?
The only difference was the time. It took five minutes to export the Current Settings reference mov, from FCP, and 90 minutes to get the downscaled one.

I should ask you too, I have been muxing the m2v’s using DVDSP. Does this matter? Is DVDSP not a good muxer?

Also, sticking to the lower bit rate did improve playback, as there was no more stutter, (thank you very much), but I am still not so happy with the general look of the video after the encoding. I am taking into account that I am downgrading from 720p, but I have seen, (albeit), commercial DVD’s that are double my videos length, that look far better than my output.

So then, without pro compression tools, is having a DVD version that looks really good simply out of my reach? I would have thought that would apply for sure with a two hour video, but I figured that with a 53 minute video, I would be able to output far more professional results.

Now as to the two other encoders you mentioned, Bitvice goes for <$200.00, while Cinema Craft goes for $795.00. Big difference, but less than what I would have thought actually. Do you have experience with either of these? In your opinion, are they about equivalent in output quality? I might find the money if I thought it would make a major difference. But I would be highly bummed if the difference wasn’t that stark.

Thanks again for all your advice.

[Richard Mamary]

Thanks Eric for your reply.
I will try your suggestions. Though I am not clear on one part.

I am not sure this matters, but as I wrote the timeline is 720p, ProRes 422.
You wrote, “export out your timeline as a ProRes 422 720×480 16×9 Anamorphic QT.”
I have been exporting with the current, (HD), settings and then letting compressor downscale to the smaller, NTSC aspect ratio, while it encodes to mpeg-2.

For export, in FCP I do not see the exact option you mention, but I am assuming you mean the setting for:
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) NTSC 48 kHz Anamorphic

Is it generally preferable to downsize the aspect ration out of FCP, rather than let Compressor do that part as well as the mpeg-2 encoding? Does it matter?

So I will then try your suggestions, at the CBR of 7.2 Mbs.