[Matt Geier]

Simon,

There are two options that come to mind when we start talking about Pro Tools here at Small Tree. One is AoE (which is what the Frost Solution is using) and the other is iSCSI (which is more robust and a little more expensive then AoE) –

The nice thing about both AoE and iSCSI as you may know is that they run over Ethernet. That said, you have some implementation options;

AoE on a Server –
If you put it on a Server: You mount a volume or multiple volumes and all of your read and write requests move through the server. This is good because you only need a single AoE License for the server. Clients can see the storage, the mounts, read to them, write to them, etc …

AoE on a Switch –
You have to have licenses for each client, and you also can only have one volume mounted at one client at a time.

The same is basically said for iSCSI.

AoE currently currently a bug in Apple O/S that will prevent AoE from using larger then 2TB volumes. For most people (at least the ones I’ve talked to.. this is not a problem) but if you need larger then 2TB volume access, you should consider iSCSI, or some other thing like a Fibre Channel storage device etc …

Small Tree can work with you to get whatever you need from end to end.

Let me know if you’d like to talk further about this project you have going on and I’d be glad to discuss.

Matt G – 651-209-6509 x 1
Small Tree

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

Sebastian,

Matt here from Small Tree.

I read your post and I wanted to give you some input.

Fibre Channel SAN’s are starting to move away from what’s been the “traditional” SAN installation for people trying to do “shared storage” etc. You can read about this all over the internet.

On another note, what you have now will work for your storage (assuming it’s fast enough for the bandwidth requirements that you need to sustain)- Implementing something like Gigabit and/or 10Gb Ethernet for your Editing Clients, and then using Link Aggregation between your server and switch to get the bandwidth you need out of the network.

It’s really simple and uncomplicated once you understand what’s going on with the network.

We have a saying here at Small Tree: It’s either Ethernet, or it’s an Ether-not.

Fibre Channel is not Ethernet, which means you’re going to have a lot more overhead costs, implementation costs, and other associated costs of maintenance etc.

Ethernet on the other hand is something that you have at your fingertips right now that you can use to do what you want to do as long as you have the right understanding of how to set up your network to meet the bandwidth needs.

If you’d like to discuss more of what I love to talk to you about, feel free to give me a call.

Matt G – 651-209-6509 x 1
Small Tree

[Matt Geier]

Chris,

I’m glad you’re happy!

There are several places in the Bay Area that know about Small Tree Products. Small Tree, with regard to our Cards and Switches, will fully support PowerPC environments (PCI X or PCI Express). Our only additional requirement is that you run 10.4 or newer.

Even with a Small Tree Ethernet solution could still use Fibre Channel Storage on the side of the server to get that fast connect going, but you’re going to be better off using Gigabit or 10Gb on the client (editing station) side into the server.

I would also be willing to talk with you on the phone to help you understand what the result would look like for you.

If you want – You can go to our website https://www.small-tree.com and search our partner page to find someone out in California that you can talk to.

OR – You can also call someone if you know them and introduce them to Small Tree if they don’t know about us already!

Matt G – 651-209-6509 x 1

[Matt Geier]

Simon,

Matt here from Small Tree –

We have some Gigabit and 10Gb AoE Storage Solutions that may work for you depending on what exact requirements need to be met.

So far, we’ve had Pro Tools experts testing our AoE Storage Solution. You’ll probably get more out of this then I have – This testing was done this last December.

1] Key Sampling rate — the preset values are 44.1Khz – CD, 48 Khz – DAT tape, 96 Khz – DVD standard and 192 Khz — best possible quality

2] Tracks — the number of tracks supported concurrently — 128 is the maximum number supported by Pro Tools

3] Buffer size — Pro Tools supports 5 buffer sizes — [I think they are] 32, 64, 128, 256 and 1024]

A low buffer is much better than a larger one because latency between the monitored audio and what ends up on disk is the lowest.

AOE could only do 64 tracks.

We also had tests run with 192 Khz sampling rate. It was 16 tracks maximum (for iSCSI) and I think we ran the buffer rate pretty low. I think 128 worked.

AOE could not do 192Khz tracks.

That’s some of the information I have in front of me. If you’d like to dig into some details with me, I’ll leave you my number and you can call if you like to discuss what you’re doing exactly and other details.

Regards,

Matt G – 651-209-6509 x 1

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

Chris,

Matt here from Small Tree.

I almost chimed in last night when I first saw this, but I wanted to sleep on it.

Bob is right of course too!

What you’ve indicated that you want to do can be done with Gigabit or 10Gb Ethernet, which will save you a lot of cost overall. Maybe using Fibre Channel on your Storage is okay, but there’s no need to run an entire infrastructure like that. It’s too expensive!

You want to be careful and make sure that you balance the network bandwidth when you’re trying to do editing in real time over Ethernet. You need to make sure your video editing clients are going to have enough bandwidth to the server, and then also have enough storage bandwidth to get the entire use out of the network when they are editing.

I personally would like to talk with you on the phone about your project and explain to you what Small Tree can supply that would help your work flow go faster.

There are some additional details that would be needed.

Is there a time we can talk?

Matt G –
651-209-6509 x 1

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

[Anne Barliant] “Another question though – If both editors want to do something with the same clip… say both end up editing parts of that clip into their sequence… would that cause problems?”

Yes, that’s when you want to work on the same bits of the same project on the same part of the disk. In order to make that work sucsessfully, you need some traffic cop software. Be it Dave (Thursby SMB SAN Software), FibreJet, MetaLAN, etc ….

I’m not sure if you’re talking about working on different sections of the same project and what affect that would have…..

I don’t know specifics about those software packages and their support for AoE Targets/Devices. We (Small Tree) are looking at offering a solution in the future for purposes just like you describe.

Thanks,

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

Hi all,

ALL of Small Tree’s Intel Cards (Which is our entire line of Gigabig and 10Gb cards) can be used in Windows and Linux with drivers direct from Intel. When you buy a Small Tree card, we send you a Mac driver which we support and maintain.

If you’d like to go out and buy an Intel card off the shelf somewhere, and use it in your Mac, that will not work. Our Mac Driver will only work with cards from Small Tree.

Thanks,

Matt

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

Hey all,

I wanted to pop in here and enlighten folks with some information. about this solution. When I read all of these posts, you’re all correct with your thinking and implementation ideas, somewhat. There’s more then one way to skin this cat, after all.

Anne’s configuration is simply a couple of Mac Pro systems. Each of them is a Final Cut workstation, however, one is also “acting” as the server.

Why an AOE RAID and not some other “Direct Attached Drive” per each system you ask? Simply because Anne wanted “Centralized Shared Storage” for her Final Cut users. FireWire drives are limited with bandwidth, and storage capacity. When you have more then one person beating on a firewire drive over a network, the bandwidth becomes really poor.

Firewire 800 will allow you 786.432 Mbit/s @ full-duplex
(98MB/sec Total Avail Bandwidth @ Top Perfomance)

Small Tree’s 4TB AOE solution was her choice to use to address that concern. With this solution, Small Tree was able to give 200MB/sec of Total Network Bandwidth (RAID Limit / 2 Ethernet Ports).

The alternative to hooking this up to the Client/Server, would be hooking the AOE RAID to a Ethernet Switch (like a traditional Fibre Channel environment (only Ethernet)), issue a couple of AoE Client Licenses, and then make some storage volumes to mount at each workstation.

One downfall of AoE is that only (Volume A) can be mounted by just one other location at one time. Hence, the reason for the server, because now, you have that one location, but by accessing the volume via the server ALL of your editing systems coming into the server can see the volume eliminating the need for multiple client licenses and multiple mounting points etc.

For purposes of which system the storage attaches to; typically it would be an Xserve or something just playing and acting in the server role. However, in Anne’s case, buying a server on top of storage wasn’t an option due to budget. So we beefed up the Mac Pro she already had with some additional memory, hooked in a Dual Port Gigabit card, set up Link Aggregation and Jumbo Frames, and AFP Shared the storage. Now she has a Shared Storage Solution capable of 200MB/sec (Dual Port Ethernet) of bandwidth which both of her clients can access at the same time. If she adds additional clients, they just need hooked to the network like normal anyway.

With regard to using MetaSAN/MetaLan or other “SAN” software, you only need to use that software in an environment where more then one user will be working on the same bits of project that other users are also at that time. It’s playing traffic cop, making sure were not reading and writing over each other, which would ultimately corrupt the data.

In this solution, if user A is working on project A, and user B is working on project B, those projects can both live on the same part of the RAID and not be affected (other then by bandwidth back and forth on the network). – NO SOFTWARE REQUIRED.

In the alternative solution, if user A is working on project A, and user B wants to access project A at that time, then yes. – SAN SOFTWARE NEEDED.

I hope that helps,

Matt.

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

Sean,

I know you’re looking for the most inexpensive way to get a “shared storage” environment going….

I’m also going to pipe in here and give you a heads up to be very careful in deciding to purchase an “Smart” switch. Here’s the reason why;

Apple systems will only support Dynamic Link Aggregation. This switch that Mr. Zelin called out is a Netgear 724T and is equivalent to Small Tree’s ES4324 WEB SMART switch. Neither of which will support Dynamic Link Aggregation. These switches, both of them, along with every other Web Smart switch, do support 802.3AD which is the IEEE call for LACP (Link Aggregation), however that specifically refers to Static Link Aggregation by default. Dynamic Link Aggregation is also part of the 802.3AD support, however, not on the Web Smart Switches. I’ve done extensive research on Web Smart switches, and ALL of them contain no Dynamic Link Aggregation support.

Another situation you’ll run into in purchasing a switch that’s less then a Managed Gigabit Switch is the fact that there are no hardware ASIC’s inside of them. It’s very common for someone to purchase a switch like this and have problems out of the gate because as they hit and pound the switch, it degrades in performance because there’s no processing power in it with fans and all that jazz.

The bottom line is that, especially with an Apple, you’re going to have to invest in a Managed Gigabit Switch. (1K-5K depending on the Brand/Vendor)

Small Tree certainly has a ES4524D / 48D. Which would be equivalent to many others on the Gigabit Managed Switch market.

Just my 0.02 with regard to this …

Matt G.

[Matt Geier]

David,

I don’t know a lot of information about XDCAM, I would like yourself to let me know exactly how it’s capable of hooking up. I believe it uses FirWire 800, but I’m unclear about that.

I’d like to know the exact model of camera you have, so I can look at it’s specs on Sony’s website to see what I can see.

I’m certainly making a few assumption as to your network already, but given what you are saying, those bandwidth requirements would certainly not exceed what’s capable of Gigabit, or even 10Gb Ethernet and would certainly be doable some how.

*** I’ve been under the impression that Apple improved their performance of AFP under 10.5. We have had reports of being able to do 90MB / sec on a single Jumbo Frame Ethernet wire from a client, and we’ve had reports of 300MB/sec using a 10Gb card.

*** Those numbers remain to be tested and confirmed officially by Small Tree, however, we’ve had the 90MB results ourselves doing some other testing on other things….

I think your biggest factors would be, do you have a Server, Storage, Gigabit Managed Switch, and Multiport Gigabit cards in place already? If not, then you’re going to be in for some additional investments to make this kind of “shared” environment work correctly.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Matt G.