[Kylee Pena]

It does have to do with gender and race. Your continued lack of acceptance of scientific facts and peer-reviewed research is not a good look. We must provide equal access TO compete. That isn’t what is happening now by putting superficial barriers at the start.

Since your response was mostly incomprehensible and irrelevant to this conversation, I’ll leave it at that except to remind you that I’m successful in this industry too.

blog: kyleepena.com
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

Bob, your viewpoint is toxic and damaging to the future of the entertainment industry. The idea that “I suffered, so everyone else should after me” is selfish and absolutely silly. Thankfully this way of thinking is slowly disappearing.

Exactly why would anyone want an intern in their facility – to “give back to the younger generation” ?

Yes, if they’re unpaid. An unpaid internship is an educational experience and a chance for an employer to get to know the next generation and find new talent while teaching good habits from the beginning.

So is this “unfair” to the weaker kids, that are not as ambitious, and aggressive ? Should everything be fair, with a level playing field ?

It’s not about weak vs. aggressive. It’s about being able to take part in an unpaid internship to begin with. One of the biggest reasons our industry lacks critical diversity and inclusion is because underrepresented people are less likely to be able to sacrifice their earning potential and work for free in these internships.

Here is a quote from a paper I co-wrote that describes this issue:

“A 2016 survey by the Blue Collar Post Collective showed that the majority of post production professionals took on three internships before finding employment, and most of them were unpaid. But when we fail to consider the full measure of a person’s life – one that would grant them the ability to work for free for a number of weeks or even years – we’re almost certainly removing important context from that person’s career. The truth is that only privileged individuals can work for free – so get rid of that privilege by paying everyone.

For example, on average, women are paid less than men within the same industry while also taking on more household work regardless of their breadwinner status. Because of their economic and societal disadvantages combined with the gender-related expectations thrust upon them, it becomes infinitely more difficult for a woman to take an unpaid opportunity. A woman is less likely to have savings or a support system willing to send her off to work for free for weeks on end.

A Blue Collar Post Collective survey of US-based post production professionals who studied an industry-based program at college shows that 40% of lower-income people of color worked in jobs outside of the industry to support themselves during their studies. This is the same number of white, middle-class film school students who did unpaid internships during their college years, and did not work to support themselves during this time.“

This paper was authored for the SMPTE Annual Technical Conference last year. I presented it there with one of my co-authors because this is an important topic and SMPTE knows it’s important.

I also wrote an article a while back on the three internships I did. Two of them were illegal by today’s standards. I got something out of all of them, but only because I had the ability to work for free.

You can find the article in the COW library because it’s an important topic and the COW knows it’s important.

For what it’s worth, I’m not here to change Bob’s mind. That ship has sailed. I’m replying here for all the younger people who lurk the forums and think that certain aspects of this industry are impossible and unchanging. Not true — lots of us are out here making things better than we experienced them.

blog: kyleepena.com
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

Hey David, the meet-up today is later at 6PM.

The Editfest Pre-Party is Friday the 11th at 6PM.

These meet-ups don’t require any sign-up. They’re at Saint Felix Hollywood on Cahuenga.

This is all laid out pretty clearly on our website: https://www.bluecollarpostcollective.com/bcpc-west/

Or a Facebook link if you like — RSVP not required: https://www.facebook.com/events/147180329188472/

ACE Editfest itself, which requires a ticket, is on Saturday the 12th. You can find that on the American Cinema Editors website.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

[David Gillick] “Where do I look for Post PA or assistant editing jobs as this is where I want to start?”

You can look on the websites directly, as I know many of these larger reality companies list emails for collecting resumes for entry level positions. You can also look on Facebook for groups like “I need a PA” or “I need an assistant editor” because there are a lot of gigs posted there. Most jobs will be through people who know you. Not just people you’ve met once and given a card to at a networking event, but have gotten to know you at least superficially and see you periodically and know your personality and goals. Which leads me to —

[David Gillick] “What do you mean that they see right through it?”

When I’m at a social or networking event, I loathe when people know where I work and approach me only to connect for a job. I hate when people ask me to coffee not to enrich themselves, but simply to try to weasel a gig. I know the hustle is a big part of this, but everyone wants to work with people they know they can trust to some degree. Most people I know in post are super turned off people people who treat networking as a business-card-gathering-Rolodex-building game instead of a thing where you are meeting people and bringing them into your life.

Networking is important, yes. But if you think about people like assets you can use and not people, they see through it and don’t want to associate with you. People like to be valued, so value them. That’s what BCPC is built on, and that’s why so many of our members are so successful.

If you want to register for Editfest, you can use our promo code EF17ACE for a $100 ticket. Many of our members will be there. If you come to one of our meet-ups on the 29th or 11th, you can start building your network of contacts — and hopefully, friends — and a lot of people will give you valuable advice. Same as on our Facebook page.

Also a side note — LA is a town that values people who specialize to a degree. If you go to an event like ours and tell people you want to do everything, it’s hard to give good advice. If you say “I’m interested in everything and not sure what to pursue” that’s easier. If you can hone your career goals to be more specific, knowing they can change at the drop of a hat, you will always get more actionable advice from people. Something to consider!

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

Hey David, is your location in LA correct? The advice you get for LA-based editing jobs is different from other areas because the industry works differently here. I want to tell you first you’re going to get a lot of different advice, much of it bad, so take it all with a grain of salt. Including this advice.

Assuming you are in LA, what kind of work do you want to do? This will inform what job you get now. If you want a staff editing job, looking in the places you’re currently looking is one way to go, but finding one will be pretty rare. If you want to work in TV (scripted or reality/docs) or film, you have a few options and they mostly start at the bottom of the ladder with either being a post PA or assistant editor. Many people get their start working nights in reality for larger companies like Bunim-Murray or Pie Town, which often hire loggers and overnight assistants. If you want to follow this sort of path, you can work 100 days minimum to be roster-eligible, get on the industry experience roster, and try to find a union assistant editor gig.

That’s not the only path, but it’s a common one in LA. There are increasing opportunities for other kinds of work, freelance and staff, as an editor on non-broadcast stuff — web series, web content to support TV and film, trailers, Snapchat, whatever. You can find jobs on Facebook groups and StaffMeUp and other sites.

But the thing that ties all the possible paths together is that you need a network of people who will help see you through your career. You don’t need referrals and connections, you need real relationships with people in the community who will get to know you, trust you, and give you the opportunities you need to step upward. I have never gotten a job through applying for it, only through knowing people. And not through “networking” because that’s cold and dry and people see right through it.

So I would encourage you to get into the community more and meet people and ask them about what they do. This is a thousand times more valuable than a certification. You need good people in your circles that will let you learn and share their knowledge and learn from you as well. Editors that tell you they don’t have time to help you because they’d rather just do it themselves aren’t worth knowing.

As far as the ACE internship: if you qualify for it, it doesn’t hurt to apply. I know editors who were able to use it as a big stepping stone, and even if you don’t get it you get invited to a lecture series. Have you registered for Editfest LA? I can share a promo code with you for a lower cost ticket.

If you’re free on Saturday, a group I work with called Blue Collar Post Collective has a meet-up in Hollywood on Saturday evening. It’s a great community of people in post, many of which have been able to help each other get jobs. We have a very robust Facebook group full of people your age who ask questions like this all the time. We’re a non-profit and our mission is to support emerging talent in post production and make the industry more accessible, so you’d fit right in. We’re also doing a pre-Editfest meet-up on August 11. You can see some information here and a link to Facebook to join the discussion and get some solid advice online and in person:

https://www.bluecollarpostcollective.com/bcpc-west/

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

Hm. Well, if I were short-sighted, I would say this is almost entirely an old-timer problem. Because the extent of MY experience with getting the cold shoulder or needing to drag a response out of someone is almost entirely 50+ guys, because they are in most of the high level decision-making roles I interact with.

However, I’m not and I know there’s a lot more nuance here beyond my own bubble so I’m not gonna say that.

It’s interesting you dismiss everything I say, include job applicants, as though that doesn’t also require a significant time investment of rewriting a cover letter, reshaping a resume, and a dog-and-pony show of its own. One might wager to say you’re a bit out of touch with the challenges other generations face. Or they might not, who knows.

But hey, good luck to you. I hope you can find a way to adjust your business to react to the changing world around you. As my email inbox has received 8 new messages about the 4 projects I’m currently managing in the 2 minutes I took to type this, I don’t have any further insight.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

I’ve seen this mentioned a couple times, and it’s almost always in this context mentioned by industry vets rather than newer people to the industry because we’ve just come to expect this from the response of our entry INTO the industry. In my current role, I see this at the highest levels. It’s not rudeness or lack of “cajones” — ain’t nobody in these parts lacking cojones, at least.

In my experience, it’s a combination of things, in no small part due to the overall devaluing of people in general (not just our industry, but the workforce in general) combined with so much more noise in our lives thanks to the internet. A lot of us are doing a lot more work with a lot fewer resources because it’s possible to have email notifications in our pockets nonstop. There reaches a point where a person must prioritize, whether they’re doing it subconsciously or not.

You seem to imply this is a generational problem and that’s very frustrating because while it may be slightly generational for younger people to rely on text messages over phone calls*, it’s certainly not because of all these damn kids and their phones at the dinner table. When I was leaving college and trying to get into the industry, I applied for literally hundreds of jobs. I got responses from maybe 3-5% of them. After I was experienced, same thing. All of my peers experienced the same thing — even going to interviews and not hearing back at all! — so in a way, the older generation very well may have planted this seed themselves. We’ve all been strung along, even after firm offers. It’s maddening but we just let it go.

I came up in a relatively small media community, so it was important to maintain good relationships with people even if you weren’t going to work with them right then. You probably would one day. Now things have become exponentially more global and the feeling of immediacy has left many of us even if the actual NEED for immediacy hasn’t changed. But I see plenty of emails going unanswered from the top down as I do from the bottom up.

“But it only takes a second to call someone or send a reply.” Yeah, but if I have 5 vendors I’m getting bids from, that adds up. And on a larger project, like a television series, multiply all that by 100. I have to say though, I’m so busy myself as a vendor that I don’t really notice when people aren’t following up. I just move on.

I’m not saying it’s right, or that it’s not always someone who hates confrontation or has poor time management. I just don’t really think it’s society’s politeness breaking down around us, or these kids that clearly need to get off your lawn. It’s a change in our world’s communication methods and volume. It’s a symptom of our globalized, largely faceless industry and the incredibly amount of STUFF in our lives.

(*I personally rely on email and messages more than phone calls due to this volume of necessary communication. I will of course call people often. But for something that can be answered with a sentence, I don’t want to be stuck on the phone, unable to multitask, for a half hour! I want to go home and cook dinner eventually, dangit!)

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

Hi Lindsay, I meant to reply to this when you posted it. It’s really cool that you were able to put your talents on display and let your work speak for itself in order to begin breaking into the industry. If you want to work in this field, you should definitely take up some of these opportunities that are coming to you now. I think it’ll all be great experience you’ll learn a lot from, but you should also watch out for anyone trying to take advantage of you. A video you did on your own time that gets over two million hits means you shouldn’t be doing any work for free, even if you don’t have a lot of experience or credentials. If someone pitches you something that’s a “great opportunity” remember it’s a business transaction where they get a product — it’s not a hand out, you should get paid too.

This goes to illustrate something really important about this industry: everyone’s path is totally different. You ask how other people got into this field. That’s a good thing to ask because it demonstrates how many paths there can be. Just don’t try to closely align to one of them because the way you’re getting in — talent + YouTube + ubiquitous internet — did not really exist even 10 years ago. I posted my first videos online in 2001 and there was no way to distribute them to my friends besides putting links in my AIM away message window (which was hard because a lot of them had DSL or dial-up) or burn them to a DVD! Now video can flow all over the world in a few minutes and people can watch your stuff in airplanes and subways and in the bathroom.

I got into the industry through a relatively mundane path. I wanted to do it from a young age, so I went to school and then got a job in the field. But all of that was easier said than done because it’s competitive and heavily based on building relationships. But that’s one thing we all share: meet people that do what you do and listen to them.

I think finding people that do similar work to what you’re being offered would be very helpful to you. A big part of doing solicited work for corporations and stuff is managing expectations. My first freelance gig for a big corporation was a DVD authoring project. I had many more years of experience technically than you do now, plus a degree, plus a certification in DVD Studio Pro from Apple! But walking into a meeting with that client and trying to figure out what they wanted vs what DVD technology is capable of doing vs what is appropriate for user interface design was incredibly stressful and difficult. Their designer sent me backgrounds that were 300dpi, and I went round and round with myself for several hours over whether I was wrong to request the art as 72dpi, assuming the designer must know that video is 72dpi (at 300dpi, the graphics were tiny once everything was resampled!)

I KNEW I was right, but I got caught up in second guessing myself. Which I mention mostly to illustrate that whether you’re brand new to all this or went to school and work in the field, you’re going to be in a lot of situations (especially earlier in your career) where you’re not confident. That’s fine, it’s all a learning experience. You’ll maybe sometimes mess up, mostly you won’t, and either way you’ll find yourself on the other side with new information.

Accept offers that are interesting to you and seem realistic. Try to find someone trusted in your circle with this experience. When I was new, I found a local editor I had worked with at an internship and shadowed him a few times to see how he worked. And then I was like oh, he works how I work because I’m also an editor. Duh. It was affirming to be in the room with someone who had been around when I had been mostly self-taught, but you come to realize you do things a certain way because they’re efficient.

What you should charge varies quite a lot by area and scope. You should ask in your local circles, or look back in this forum for threads about that. Just keep in mind you should define the project pretty specifically, and then if the scope expands, stop and ask the client to reassess what they’re asking you to do. If a contractor gives you a quote for fixing your plumbing and then comes in and sees that they actually need to replace all your pipes, they’re going to give you a new quote for that, right? Video stuff should be no different. Sometimes clients don’t really grasp this, so be firm.

I have written and write about these kinds of topics a lot, including last week. If you’re interested, maybe check out my latest blog: https://blogs.creativecow.net/blog/14355/addressing-professional-fears-and-growing-up

Good luck!

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t

[Kylee Pena]

One more thing: not to be gratuitious, but I wish I had taken this advice I wrote to heart when I was 16.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t
demo: kyleewall.com

[Kylee Pena]

If you’ve never ever visited LA, you should definitely try to visit if only to see the city. I wanted to move to LA long before I had ever visited because I knew it was where I needed to be, but the first visit was when my brain was like alright, we’re doing this. A lot of people are cynical or bitter about LA, but I think it’s really amazingly diverse and beautiful as a place. And I enjoy there is post production stuffed into every nook and cranny.

I’m originally from Indiana, and I found that my pre-visits were vital in calming my nerves when moving. LA is a big place, and having a sense of geography was helpful to me since I was raised in cornfields and flatlands.

The kinds of jobs you should look for will vary based on where you want to go in your career. Assuming you want to work in something like television or feature films, you’re probably going to want to look for production assistant jobs. Specifically a post PA. You can also look for assistant editor or apprentice editor roles. When you look at stuff produced by studios, there’s a hierarchy that’s difficult to break out of…which is good and bad. I think any young/new editor benefits from holding a PA job and learning the ropes. A post PA job and a healthy amount of networking is a great entry point into working your way up in post production. Almost everyone I know did a PA job first.

Outside of traditional paths in film and TV, there are so many jobs out there you can think about, or move between. There are indie films, tons of web series work, independent post houses. So many other things where you can do other roles, all still in LA.

When I first landed here, I was told I wouldn’t be working anything above an assistant role for a long time. Within a few months, I was supervising the workflow on two major network TV shows. I’m 29 and I came to LA with like 8 years of professional experience, so I don’t mean to set your expectations wrong — I did my time as a PA and a low paid editor in other places and took the long way around. I’m saying this only to remind you not to let anyone tell that this ONE way is the ONLY way to get where you want to go.

A more relevant example, maybe: my friend got out of college and got work here right away as an assistant. He worked for a post house that got really busy with music videos, and he was good and reliable and knew more than anyone so suddenly he was pushed into an online editor role. Now he’s like barely 25 and he’s the system admin and online editor for a busy post house in Hollywood. Most people have no idea he’s so young because he’s knowledgable, curious and confident.

So yeah, that’s my advice:

— Look for post PA jobs.
— Keep your mind open to other opportunities.
— Meet everyone you possibly can meet, especially if they’re doing something that looks interesting to you.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t
demo: kyleewall.com