[Gavin Stokes]

Well, the Io is (or should be) a perfectly good converter that can go between S-video, component, and SDI. Yet this functionality is unusable unless this $2000 device is tethered to a computer, because it lacks a simple set of buttons on the front to select a video and audio input.

My first task for the Io had nothing to do with a computer. I wanted to convert S-video to SDI or component for archiving on DigiBeta (since the DVW-A500 ridiculously has only composite, not S-video input). But I couldn’t get the Io to select the right inputs without hooking it up to a Mac via FireWire, booting the computer, installing the Io setups for FCP, launching FCP, and then launching the capture utility to pretend was I was going to capture through the Io. All to flip the inputs. That’s ridiculous. This box shouldn’t be rendered useless as a stand-alone interface by the lack of a $3 strip of buttons.

Later on, when I was doing some capture through the Io, I found there was no way to control the proc amps or the analog audio input level. Isn’t that just a little disappointing on a $2000 device?

[Gavin Stokes]

Hi Tony.

I was aware of the cooperation between Apple and Panasonic on several products; a Panasonic rep appeared at some Apple NAB-related functions to ballyhoo their “inexpensive” DVCPro HD deck in conjunction with FCP. I suspected (as I mentioned in another post) that Panasonic had a hand in the codec development.

Unless Panasonic is only courting Apple users and ignoring the large Windows market, however, they should wrap that codec for Windows Media.

In regard to Sony, I said the same thing you’re saying: Sony is not about to release a DV50 codec when it has nothing to do with their product line, and in fact serves the competitor.

I looked through the E-mails I exchanged with Panasonic, and from the address it looks like it was their pro or broadcast division support. I sent the entire series to the Panasonic rep who responded to my initial post, so we’ll see if there are any insights to come.

I also had a decent experience with Aja support. I’m somewhat baffled by some design omissions in the Io, but the company at least was responsive. That’s to be commended in this era of “what can we get away with” and “let’s hide from our customers.”

[Gavin Stokes]

“Is there anyway to transfer DVCPRO footage from a mac to a PC without recompressing it or uncompressing it ?”

Right now, as far as I know, the answer is no. The Avid codecs won’t work, because QuickTime won’t recognize them as compatible with your files captured by FCP.

The good news is that QuickTime 7 for Windows should include the DVCPro50 and HD codecs, and it’s in testing right now. The bad news is that the beta (which is downloadable from the Apple site) doesn’t read these files properly yet. I just tested a DV50 file a couple days ago and it displayed a blank white frame the whole time.

Hopefully they’ll get this fixed soon.

Regards,
Gavin

[Gavin Stokes]

Good question about the Sony black-box HDCam codec. I’ve wondered about it being locked away inside the deck hardware too. One might theorize that they wanted to boost sales of Xpri (which incidentally is maintained by my former colleagues from Discreet Edit) by making it the only native editing solution, but I’m pretty sure the strategy predates Xpri. Maybe Sony thinks the codec’s so great that they don’t want it reverse-engineered. Harumph.

Sure, next time I talk to someone from JVC I’ll ask what the story is on their 24P format. Free codecs for all, dammit!

Regards,
Gavin

[Gavin Stokes]

Hi Gary, fellow Chicagoan.

“That is only true for content that is cuts only with no additional processing”

Yes, that’s why I said “any frame you don’t change.” And regardless of what you’re doing, there’s still no reason not to ingest the footage in its native form over FireWire. You can then manipulate it and save the result uncompressed. There’s no benefit to decompressing 100 percent of the footage before bringing it into the editing or compositing app. As long as the app takes the format you’re supplying, use it directly and only worry about how to store the result.

Regards,
Gavin

[Gavin Stokes]

Hi Noah.

“You acknowlege Adobe and Sony are the obstacles to their own NLEs working natively with the HVX200 and then you conclude buyers will blame Panasonic for this? I suspect it will be the opposite.”

What a curious interpretation. I didn’t say that they’re the obstacles. I was saying that Sony doesn’t make a single camera that uses DV50, so why would they come out with a codec? If anything, I was saying that there are NO obstacles to current or even fairly old software working just fine with new image formats. All you need is one codec on the computer, and then any Windows Media client application can use it.

The major proponent of the format should be the one to release the codec; we only need one, and the hardware manufacturer or the operating-system vendor is the most logical choice to develop it. Why have all that redundant development work going on between different NLE vendors, who aren’t likely to share their work with each other?

You mention FCP, but the whole point of this thread is DV50 on Windows. Also, Apple is in a unique position as the OS vendor and a major supplier of the editing software. Apple wanted to hawk the Mac as this groundbreaking HD platform, so they made sure there were DV50 and DV100 codecs out there for all to use. And who knows, maybe Panasonic was involved. Third parties use Apple’s codec (that’s what Apple recommends), and in the one case where there’s redundancy (Blackmagic’s uncompressed and Apple’s uncompressed) there are conflicts and customers suffer. FCP is the major beneficiary of Apple’s work in this case, but everyone can use it and Apple still achieves the primary goal, which is selling computers.

To whom should we turn on Windows? Microsoft, unlike Apple, is not that focused on content creation, and is largely moribund these days anyway. So with Panasonic looking to lead a large segment of the video industry away from crummy DV25 (finally) and HDV, it is the logical source for a codec.

You also mention Avid, but they don’t provide a Windows Media codec either. Just QuickTime, and I’m not even sure that it’s supposed to be freely available. Furthermore, the Avid codec is incompatible with much of the DV50 footage out there, because it was released before Apple’s and therefore has a different codec-type code than Apple’s. Thus, any DV50 QuickTimes captured on a Mac (other than on a Mac Avid) will not play using Avid’s codec under Windows. Again, we see that a single source for a codec is preferable.

“And don’t forget for those who insist on working with Vegas there will be always be workarounds- such as capturing uncompressed or via SDI or dubbing to another format. So to say there is no way of getting the footage into unsupporting NLEs like Vegas is not the whole picture.”

Well, I disagree, because I don’t consider such a setup valid. You’re taking already compressed material and blowing it up to uncompressed size. You are then forever saddled with that bloated media size and its storage and drive-performance requirements unless you recompress it, suffering an unnecessary generation of loss. One of the best things about DV50, especially compared to DV25, is its reasonable quality at modest storage requirements. Altered frames should be stored uncompressed, but everything else can be kept in its native format. Sure, there are always “workarounds”, but not for those who care about maintaining all possible quality with compressed material.

When Epson releases a new printer, they don’t sit around and wait for Microsoft or Apple to write a driver for them. They give you a driver in the box with the printer. When you buy a Canon digital SLR, you get software that reads the proprietary raw format of the camera. For DV cameras, there’s built-in support in the OSs now, so companies like Sony don’t have to bother. But for DV50 and DV100 under Windows, we need software from the hardware manufacturer.

With just a little work from one vendor, everyone on the platform can gain access to this footage in its native form. The best candidate for that vendor is Panasonic.

[Gavin Stokes]

“Send a letter to Sony and to Adobe- it is up to them to support DVCPRO50.”

What? You couldn’t have picked two less likely candidates. Sony doesn’t offer a single product that uses DV50, since they have conspicuously failed to answer DVCPro50 even after all these years. Sony’s best DV cameras are still DV25! Sad.

And Adobe? Nope. Adobe has been trounced by FCP, and FCP comes with a DV50 codec. Why would they bother?

Panasonic is the vendor whose hardware makes the most use of these codecs. If people go out and buy an HVX200 and then have no way to get the footage into their computers, they’re going to blame Panasonic.

[Gavin Stokes]

Hi David.

I was certainly not recommending that anyone return their footage to DV50 or HDCam as it goes through stages of manipulation. I agree, that must all be done in an uncompressed domain. I meant to emphasize that there’s no need to recompress any frame that isn’t being altered.

I’m very interested to see the results of your HDV testing, since my opinion of this format is very low indeed.

I’m also awaiting info from a Panasonic person who was kind enough to respond to my question about why there’s still no DV50 (or DV100) codec for Windows from Panasonic. This is going to be a big issue when HDV’s nemesis, the HVX200, hits the market.

Regards,
Gavin

[Gavin Stokes]

Hi Jan. Thanks for your response. I’ll contact you off-line with details, but the problem is that the codecs you refer to are QuickTime codecs, not Windows Media. Furthermore, they are not even compatible with DV50 QuickTime files captured on Macs (using the Apple codecs that come with QuickTime under OS X), which eliminates a lot of material. And finally, people shouldn’t have to buy an Avid system to use a Panasonic camera, especially when they already have Vegas or Premiere or some other editing app. All they need is a codec.

Regards,
Gavin

[Gavin Stokes]

There seem to be some misconceptions here. First, all these formats are compressed. DVCPro HD, HDCam, whatever.

Furthermore, transferring via FireWire should not add compression. In fact, it avoids it. If you send the material over SDI, you’re decompressing it from its native format (DVCPro or HDCam). What are you doing with it once it gets to the computer via SDI? Saving it in some uncompressed format, hopefully, otherwise you’ve just unnecessarily recompressed it.

Sending DVCPro 50 or 100 (HD) over SDI doesn’t make any sense, because you could have just captured the original data over FireWire; this avoids decompressing each frame, saves a ton of storage space, requires no special hard drive performance, and is still fully editable. Any frame you don’t change can be saved back to its native format with no recompression.

Unfortunately (and typically), Sony is different. They refuse to provide a software implementation of the HDCam codec, so you ALWAYS have to decompress it (unless you’re using Xpri, I think). There’s no way to get the data off the tape in its native format, so SDI is your only choice. Then when you’re done with your project and want to write it back to tape for archiving, it gets recompressed. Dumb de dumb dumb, Sony.

So that’s compression. Another problem is the color sampling. DV50 and 100 are 4:2:2; for every two pixels, you get only one color. Since you’re doing keying based on color, that creates a blocky, low-resolution key. Sony is apparently 3:1:1, and I’m not sure how that plays out spatially; but you still suffer from the same problem: color information that’s of a lower resolution than the details in the picture.

I’ve wondered whether Beta SP or other analog formats might actually produce a better-looking key by “smoothing” the picture and obscuring the blockiness of the color information. Maybe someone here has done some experiments along those lines. One simple technique you can use is to put a blur on the green channel in your compositing software if you’re doing a greenscreen with a chunky color signal. I’m sure these DV-specific keyers use a combo of techniques to interpolate and smooth the jagged edges of the color signal.