[Eric Hansen]

I get what you’re saying about the software. i really like the ATTO cards, but their software interface is a bit behind. all the needed info is there, but as an example, i think CalDigit’s interface software is better. i would still buy the ATTO R380 over the CalDigit though.

as far as feedback, thats a function of how well the card works with the enclosure. this is just a case of getting on the phone with the companies and seeing if one plays well with the other. if the support is there on both sides, then go for it. this is where all-in-one solutions from companies like Maxx Digital can be worth the money. they guarantee that everything works together and can support you when it doesnt. in the case of a separate card and enclosure, it make take a bit longer to troubleshoot a communication issue.

Barracuda drives. i’m not going to get into the Seagate thing here, but one thing that differentiates the all-in-ones from the “byo” is the firmware on the drives. companies like CalDigit, Apple and Promise will put their own firmware on the hard drives. this increases the feedback to the enclosure and the card. you can get more valuable data on the health of your drives. they also do extensive testing to make sure the drives working together wont have latency issues (Seagate) and will customize the firmware to increase certain aspects of performance.

don’t underestimate the importance of support for these critical systems. i’m learning hard lessons on that front everyday.

as far as ATTO vs. Areca. i’ve been using ATTO for years since i started with SCSI and everything has been 100%. never used Areca before so i have no experience.

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[Eric Hansen]

OK. Fibre for Unc10bit and 2k…4k??

then the next thing you need to be prepared for is multiple RAID boxes. in one Xsan setup i’ve done, we have a single Promise RAID serving 3 edit suites. if we want to do Unc10bit HD on one of the systems, we have to quiet the other edit systems. it uses all the available bandwidth. and this is for 23.98fps. forget 29.97. if we want more bandwidth, we need to get another Promise RAID. this also means more ports on the switch. i’m not sure if even 2 RAIDs could feed that much bandwidth to 4 or 5 systems. you might even need 3 RAIDs.

if you need the speed and bandwidth, you need it. with the installations i do, i just try to make sure that the client and i are on the same page as far as requirements. once i start to spell out how much it costs for that much speed, everyone usually comes back with, well, maybe we dont really NEED all that speed. but if you do, you do.

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[Eric Hansen]

if you leave your storage as DAS, and only have the other computers connect via ethernet, then setup is relatively easy. you will need a 4 or 6 port ethernet card for your Xserve, and an Layer 2 managed ethernet switch such as an EdgeCore ES4528V. turn on AFP file sharing and go. no additional software needed. you will need to setup your switch with custom settings though.

if you want to build a fibre-based SAN such as Xsan, find an installer/integrator to help you, as Jordan suggested. Xsan is not plug and play. the ethernet system isnt plug and play either, but Xsan is a completely different animal. AppleCare wont talk you through it. there are books like Jordan says, but even the most detailed ones still assume that you have some outside networking knowledge such as how IP addressing works and how to up a DNS server for reverse look ups. Or setting zones on a FC switch. i learned at the feet of a certified Xsan installer. i also hit the books pretty hard. and even then, i didnt have the guts to install one myself until over 2 years later.

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[Eric Hansen]

the biggest issue i have with fibre is the different speeds. your Xserve RAID is at 2Gbs. but the current standard is 4Gbs, which is quickly giving way to 8Gbs. you say “future-proof” with fibre, but this just isnt the case. its more dependent on the switches, cards and transceivers used (the optical to copper FC converters). the fibre itself is actually cheap in comparison. you would never use an Xserve RAID as the hub of even an ethernet based SAN because its just too slow. 80MB/s per channel for a total of 160MB per enclosure. the server in the example setup i gave runs over 650MB/s over SAS. don’t go fibre just because you have an Xserve RAID. its OLD

you say your house finishing codec is Unc10bit, but come on, really? i have worked with post houses before that told me exactly this, but i got them to switch one show to ProRes HQ and they havent looked back. ask yourself if you really need Unc10bit for delivery. i understand the need to work with Unc10bit for certain things like graphics, and for DPX. but that’s why the system in my example has one fast online system. with a codec like ProRes 4444, theres no need for Unc10bit anymore.

its difficult to put together numbers because theres a lot of variables, but here goes with the big ticket items. i’m using Xsan as an example of a fibre-based SAN because that’s what i have experience with:

Fibre:
16TB storage for Fibre – Promise RAID $15,000
16port FC switch for Fibre system – $5000
FC card for each client, and server – $500
$999 per client and server (need 2 metadata servers) for Xsan
2 servers, roughly $3000-4000 each

Ethernet:
16TB storage for Ethernet system – MaxxDigital Expando (SAS with expansion) $8500
SAS card for server – $1000
Ethernet card for server – $800
24port ethernet switch for Ethernet system – $1200
ethernet cards not needed for Mac Pros or G5s that already have 2 ethernet ports
free for Apple file sharing for ethernet system
1 server – $2500-3000

of course, there’s also the cost of installation and service. neither one of these is plug and play, although the ethernet based system is a little bit easier to install.

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[Eric Hansen]

hey Brandon

I am in the middle of building a setup with demands very similar to yours. i’m going the ethernet route. the one big difference is that we are limiting the use of DPX files and Uncompressed HD to the online/color correction system, which has its own SAS direct attached storage. when footage is ingested, we either use the 1k proxies (in the case of RED), or transcode to ProRes HQ (HDCAM, HDCAM SR, DPX from Phantom HD, H.264 from 7D, etc). we use ProRes for all the editorial on an ethernet-based SAN, serving 4 main edit systems and numerous laptops and iMacs. and use ProRes mostly as our online codec. but if we need to work in uncompressed or DPX for any reason, that is solely in the color correction/online suite which has a Maxx Digital SAS array directly attached.

if you think you can work in a similar way – only having super high speed on one or 2 systems with their own storage, and the rest of the system running ProRes from an ethernet SAN, you can save a bundle over a full 4Gbs Fibre setup.

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[Eric Hansen]

POV = Point of View Camera. these are small imagers, i’ve sometimes heard people call them lipstick cameras, that athletes mount on their helmets, bikes, surfboards, etc; to give the audience their point of view.

here is VIO’s site: https://www.vio-pov.com/

since these cameras are marketed to the fans of these athletes as much as the athletes themselves, they are very inexpensive compared to pro options like the Iconix. the cheapest GoPro is $190. so in many cases you’re dealing with similar resolution and quality as point and shoot cameras with video, or cell phones with video. this also means non-pro codecs such as the OpenDML JPEG i mentioned in the first post. not high quality stuff, but definitely a case of content being more compelling than image quality.

if anyone has any suggestions on how to deal with these non-standard codecs and their frame rate issues, please let me know. or if you have used these codecs/cameras and not run into these framerate issues, let me know that too. i used VIO footage for years and this is the first time i’ve encountered this issue. or maybe its the first time i’ve noticed it.

thanks

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[Eric Hansen]

thanks for the suggestion Dave.

interpreting the footage for 25fps was one of the first things i did when i noticed this problem. but it still doubles frames when stepping through. it happens no matter what the Comp fps settings are.

i couldnt agree with you more about the camera. my personal favorite is the Iconix HD cameras (of course they use a bulky SDI breakout box and require a separate recorder, besides being expensive). i also really want to try Sony’s new AVCHD POV camera. but the reality for this project is that i am working with action sports athletes that are sponsored by these particular POV camera companies.

thanks

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[Eric Hansen]

Come on Bob. We’re editing HD over Ethernet! As far as I’m concerned, we’re all crazy.

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Eric Hansen, The Audio Visual Plumber – http://www.avplumber.com

[Eric Hansen]

Mark: I’m not gonna waste the bandwidth to explain all the reasons why you’ll have a hard time

genius. i might have to make this my new sig.

to Ethan – one of the hardest things is creating a mixed OS environment for SAN. there are very few companies that have made this work and they charge you for it. the second hardest thing is if your dealing with video editing SAN over ethernet, you pretty much have to ditch all your old networking gear. i have thrown away quite a few $2k+ Cisco ethernet switches during my installs because they can’t do gigabit. yes they may have other enterprise features that initially made the $ worth it. but for fast SAN use, they don’t cut it. the clients are a little surprised to say the least, they thought they were buying for the future, but thats where it is today. just because you got a bunch of expensive networking gear for free (or cheap) doesn’t mean that it will work. i got a bunch of SCSI RAIDs and DLT decks that cost a small fortune only a few years ago, and still work great and exactly as they should, but they are not fast enough for todays needs. my 4 bay 250GB RAID-0 SCSI barely did 50MB/s (if i remember correctly), but we edited FEATURE FILMS on that thing.

don’t take any of these replies the wrong way. sometimes it can take guts to post questions to the SAN forum.

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Eric Hansen, The Audio Visual Plumber – http://www.avplumber.com

[Eric Hansen]

hey Bill

others have suggested that you go with ProResHQ and i agree wholeheartedly. but lets assume that Unc10bit HD is a requirement that can’t budge. you only have 2 systems. how much do these 2 systems REALLY need to collaborate? in my experience, to get consistent Unc10bit HD in and out of an Xsan, you will need at least 2 Promise RAIDs fully populated. thats 32TB of raw storage at about $27,000 just for the RAIDs. i have an Xsan with a single Promise RAID, but to get 10bit HD to capture and play consistently without drop frames at 29.97, i have to make the other editors on the other systems go home, so the one system that needs all the bandwidth gets it.

looking another way, if you used SAS direct-attached storage on each system, you could get faster speeds than an Xsan, for much less. maybe $5000 per system for a 16TB enclosure and SAS card. with the Ethernet SAN systems i have built, theres at least one edit computer in each installation with direct-attached storage specifically for dealing with Unc10bit HD or similar formats. but these systems are using this storage less and less as the producers are getting used to ProRes. it was a warm blanket at first for the shop owners, knowing they can do Unc10bit HD if they are ever asked by their clients. but it just doesnt happen too much anymore.

if you go with 2 systems with direct attached storage, run a gigabit line between the 2 for occasionally sharing/copying a file. yes it will be a slow transfer with Unc10bit files, and certainly wont play anything realtime. but it will work for moving files back and forth.

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Eric Hansen, The Audio Visual Plumber – http://www.avplumber.com