[David Lawrence]

[Jeff Markgraf] “I get it. Positions have been staked out. Agendas must be furthered. Maybe Aindreas can visit and drop some more amusing word bombs for our entertainment. I had simply hoped for some real discussion. “

Hi Jeff,

I’ve been meaning to post a response but have been pretty swamped myself lately. 😉 As I pointed out above, we actually a very long and thoughtful discussion about this topic in 2011. Please check it out:

NLEs, DAWs, Tracks and Audio-centric Workflows — Continuing the Conversation…
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/16886

I’ll also try to make some time to write some more in response to your question.

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[David Lawrence]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “Admit your sin. You are on CC Premiere.

Chris Petit wrote a confessional, I wrote a confessional, and I think you, David Lawrence, are maybe due a confessional. guitar cue.”

LOL!

Ah brother Aindreas, a lot has happened over the past couple months. I’ve crossed over to the dark side in more ways than one. I refer you to this thread in the After Effects forum, where you can read a little bit about what I’m currently up to. Go ahead, I’ll wait. 😉

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/2/1066289

This is the most fun, interesting, and innovative project I’ve been on since my Lucasfilm days. And that’s saying a lot. On top of that, I’m working with two of my favorite colleagues/people. We all met at Lucasfilm and have been collaborating off and on for decades. With this project, it totally feels like the band’s back together! Once again we’re inventing the future – pushing hardware, software, and workflow as hard as we possible can. I’m using everything I can get my hands on. I’m having a blast!

Just finished a post-production report for the first round of demos. We’re waiting to find out if we get a green light for the big phase 2 demo we have planned. Please wish us luck!

I promise when I can say more, I’ll not only write a full confessional, but if Timmy likes, maybe a full article on what we’re doing (assuming the mothership lets me talk about it). I can’t wait to tell you more! 😀

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[David Lawrence]

[Oliver Peters] “So far I’ve only sent Premiere Pro sound to Logic Pro X and not Pro Tools. That was a disaster using either Premiere or Audition. I ended up doing the dialogue clean-up in Premiere and sent the mixer a baked track to embellish and add music.”

AAF in Premiere was badly broken before the 2015 release. If you were using an earlier version try again. Good chance you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

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[David Lawrence]

[David Roth Weiss] “Editing at zero-crossing points is the only way to achieve a perfect audio edit. While editing audio at the frame level can be fudged in many cases by adding cross dissolves, that’s not granular enough for all audio edits, especially when editing music and audio with quiet passages.”

Especially true when editing dialogue at the level Michael describes above:

[Michael Gissing] “I can attest to the common occurrence of slicing audio down to the sample in post sound. It can be the difference when either cutting the ‘s’ off the end of a word to remove a plural or slicing off an ‘s’ and adding it to another word to make the plural. It sometimes matters to have the ability to trim a clip both top and tail to sample accuracy and then place it with sample accuracy to make it work.”

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[David Lawrence]

[Oliver Peters] “Unfortunately, subframe audio edits in an NLE don’t always translate correctly to DAWs and vice versa. So I would suggest they should be avoided unless you plan to finish your audio editing and mix entirely within the NLE. However, the Premiere to Audition direct link might do it correctly. Not sure on that.”

I haven’t had any problems or heard any complaints from my sound guy about the AAFs I send him out of Premiere for ProTools.

For me, the biggest issue is that when you select “Show Audio Time Units”, Premiere lets you edit at the sample level on the video track as well as the audio track. This is problematic because a sub-frame video edit is meaningless. Nevertheless, the UI lets you do this and it can lead to unpredictable results in what you see vs what actually plays in the video track. I want to be careful when I use sample-level audio edits so I actually appreciate that I have to switch modes because it forces me to think about what I’m doing with audio in relation to video.

[David Roth Weiss] “You won’t hear those 1 sample edits, but it’s very cool to know that the capability is there to edit at the highest level of granularity right on the timeline. “

It’s very cool. To be honest, my most common use of this feature is for syncing second source audio. The tools everyone uses (PluralEyes, or Premiere built-in sync) are okay, but they tend to be within a frame of accuracy. My standard practice is to zoom in and sync down to the sample. And yeah, it does make a difference.

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[David Lawrence]

[Oliver Peters] “In Premiere, you can make two subframe audio edits very close together to each other.”

In Premiere, you can edit audio at the sample level, i.e. you can make one sample audio edits.

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[David Lawrence]

[David Roth Weiss] “For the record, I just received a reply from Larry Jordan who wrote:

“Cool – an improvement I was not aware of.

Thanks for letting me know.”

Larry”

Sweet, thanks for passing the word along.

BTW, “Show Audio Time Units” isn’t even new. You can do it in Premiere CS6 too.

Premiere is a deep program with lots of features so unless you’re looking, you might miss this one. Did you know you can get sub-frame audio editing in FCP Legacy too?

I know plenty of people who don’t use a DAW because they can do every thing they need in their NLE. Unless you need MIDI or some specialized plugins or routing, the right NLE might have you covered for sound too.

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[David Lawrence]

[Shawn Miller] “As David Lawrence already pointed out, Premiere Pro will also edit down to the sample level.”

I’ll add that with VST/AU plugins, flexible bussing, clip and track level automation, the ability to make tracks as big as and as many you want, Premiere Pro is actually a very robust DAW for 80-90% of what I need everyday. Is it a substitute for ProTools or a full-fledged DAW? Of course not. But anyone saying a well designed NLE can’t also share the functionality of a DAW doesn’t know what they don’t know.

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[David Lawrence]

[David Roth Weiss] “For the record, with the addition of Adobe Audition, editors using Premiere can edit down to the sample level of 1/48000th of a frame – FCP X also supports sub-frame audio editing, but at 1/100th of a frame.”

Actually David, you can edit down to the sample in Premiere Pro too. Just toggle “Show Audio Time Units” in the sequence panel drop down. I do this so often I’ve assigned it a keyboard shortcut. 😉

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[David Lawrence]

[Tony West] “I would like to see if he changed his mind about X and using it if he knew more about it.

We won’t truly know unless he decided to really kick the tires.”

I’m willing to bet he has tried it. An editor of Murch’s caliber and experience doesn’t need to cut a feature in it to know it’s not gonna work for him. It becomes clear pretty quickly, especially if you need your NLE to treat audio with as much flexibility as video. Audio is a second-class citizen on the FCPX timeline. As long as that remains true, I think it’s unlikely editors like Murch will be interested.

[Tony West] “I’m going to use it even if he never does though hehehe”

Hey, even I use it too. Just not the timeline part, lol. Choice is a great thing! 🙂

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