Brett Underberg-davis
Forum Replies Created
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If you mean by “one person shoot” that you’ll be setting up the equipment and then standing in front of the cam, then I don’t see how a mixer will help. Yes, it would be better to have one, if you had someone to operate it. Seems to me the best you can do with one person is do some test shots to find proper levels, get the basic tracks as good as you can live, and fix any glitches in post, assuming you have more time than money.
Having more crew for a low budget shoot may save you money by reducing the amount of time you need to spend in post fixing stuff that a good crew would have fixed at the time of the shoot itself? Of course this is said with my having little idea of what the end product is, or what level of finish will be good enough for your project.
And yes, I realize this is heresy considering this is the audio pros forum. But the real pros here have already covered the “right” way to shoot this, and I agree with them completely, assuming you have the budget to do it right. If you don’t have that budget though, and you do have someone who doesn’t value their time highly, my suggestion may work as a bad second choice. 😉
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Got some slight improvement by moving the D50 back to the fence in front of the stands and more centered this time (last Friday’s game). Though I still found myself mixing in the on-cam sound to give more sense of space. I did pick up bits of some nearby conversation, though only briefly… but this was one of the reasons I had the recorder midway onto the running track, I think, in a location where few spectators would be likely to casually plant themselves. It’s a big risk putting the recorder anywhere close to the stands, I think, at least if the goal of the closer recording is to minimize crowd noise.
One test recording I did at one of our early games (recording the host team’s halftime show, so I could play with location and levels) seemed to invite two or three teens to camp as close to the recorder as they could, to discuss their sex lives.
I’d considered placing it at the front of the stands, on the raised platform itself, when I was looking for a spot this last time, but I decided against it mostly because I didn’t want to incite someone in the stands to move something that was “blocking” their view or whatever. (Not that the D50 could block anyone’s view, but I could just anticipate the convo with some thicknecked fan of the home team and me in my visitor’s team band chaperone windbreaker).
Anyway, I spent minimal time processing the two tracks (this was also my first time using the D50’s windscreen, though the night was still very calm and there wasn’t enough wind to be a problem anyhow.
I would love to see that mic. But the camera I’d be showing is the XL H1, which sparked a convo on top of the announcer’s stand, where I met the head of Monroe HS’s TV/vid program, who mentioned that Comcast (or another local cable provider) was giving them money for equipment to set up a local access station, and he wanted my comments on using the XL H1, which was on their shortlist. If the XH A1 had been available when I decided to buy the XL H1, though, I might well have gone with that camera, since it is much more affordable, and probably does 98% or better of what I need most of the time. If I were younger, and gas were cheaper, I’d probably be looking to find a stringer gig with area news channels. 😉
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My concern about the other side of the field would be that for most of the program the brass especially will be facing away from the mics — they turn their backs on the drum major for a pianissimo passage early in the routine — it definitely has an effect on the sound, and moreso in some stadiums, as buildings around the field act to reflect the soundwaves all over the place, depending on where the buildings are, of course. This was very clear at Sommerville, when we played Immaculata. 😉 Still, it would be interesting to hear how that works if you decide to try it. Tonight is an away game, so I’ll be pushing it just to get set up this time and see if moving a bit further back, and perhaps into the stands a bit gives any better result.
Also, since at this point I have a number of tracks that have been recorded from 2 positions, I guess I’ll keep messing about with some of the noise gate filters, as those seem to have given the best results in post for cutting down slightly on the percussive effects, without dreadfully altering the rest of the performance. If I come across a filter or VST plug-in that shows more promise, I’ll try to mention it here in follow-up.
As for distance perspective, I think that’s instinctively why I’ve been blending the D50 audio with what I’m getting from the camera’s boom mic (cutting out nearly all of the camera track, leaving just enough to reinforce the sense of space) — though sometimes I think adding synthetic reverb fairly subtly might do just as much, except for adding in some of the actual crowd noise.
It would be interesting to see what sort of support we might get from the school’s AV program, as I know they themselves have some very good cameras, and probably also have some good mics. It would be nice to try something other than the stock mic feeding to the XL H1, assuming I could get the time and perhaps someone from the school interested in being audio crew, as this is just as much a time problem as an equipment problem.
I finally located the weekly announcement that tells which competitions we will be going to — sadly, all those that have been announced are in Pa., for some reason. Wm. Tennant in Warminster (Oct. 18), and Neshaminy HS, in Langhorne (Oct. 24). I’m not really sure why we are going to these except that they are a shorter drive for us than Giants Stadium and other competitions within NJ.
We also bagged a parade in Philly that we had gone to in past years when we found that the other band that generally played there had been getting a hefty honorarium. Our band director offered to come again if the honorarium matched, but apparently the parade organizers passed on our offer.
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As for links to the other videos, at this point I’ve only put up one other, and the audio for that one came off my camera, as I did not anticipate enough time (at an away game) to get the D50 set up, it was brand new to me at that time as well, I’d literally had it in hand for 2 days at most? — I handed it off to another band parent, but he could not deduce that somehow (probably my younger daughter) the built-in mics had been switched off, so no audio was captured separately at that event, just what came to the stock mic for the XL H1, which seems to have some directionality, but is not an ideal mic for recording at that distance (as the video demonstrates).
The best present render of that video is also at vimeo.
The balance is better, but as you point out, I am shooting over the fans there. Also, as one of our first games of the season, the program was only partially rehearsed and presentable, so a lot of it is missing still. Even on the Pennridge video there is still one sequence that the band had not yet added to the routine.
As with your band, there’s some pressure not to make video generally available at this point, in part due to the fact, I suppose, that the band parents association uses an end-of-season video as a fundraiser, so it probably wouldn’t be the best plan to make all the best stuff widely available? My thought is that putting up one or two good examples might encourage other parents to spring for the video in the end. I haven’t felt particular pressures from the band director to hold back, though.
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Thank you so much, Glenn, for the detailed (and spot on) critique. I think I was finally beginning to realize that much of the “hot” percussion showed up most of all when the drum line moved right in front of the recorder. But it’s good to hear that confirmed. I kind of dread moving the recorder that much further back, and sincerely wish it were possible to do what you suggest by placing the recorder high up above the band on the 50 yard line — as you suggest, that would be ideal.
I don’t suppose it would be an improvement to place the recorder behind the band, would it? 😉 (Even if it provided a better balance I don’t relish the idea of getting across the field to recover the recorder after performance).
For the dailies I’ve given to the band director so far, I have been trying to create a mix between my onboard recording with the stock mic from the Canon XL H1 — but it definitely picks up a lot of crowd noise and whatever the jokers in the stands or the booth or (at MHS) the roof of the booth, might happen to be saying. It would be nice, but probably beyond my current budget, to add a great directional shotgun mic to my kit bag. That item goes to the top of my equipment wishlist here and now — though if I use it with the D50 would I also need a preamp for phantom power? Actually, since I have (in theory) 4 audio tracks available for the camera’s audio section, it might be good to run a cable to the camera and record that way — though this is something I’d want to test out beforehand, as I’ve barely used the audio features of the camera itself, other than the stock on-board mic.
I think I may look for a spot on the ground that does not feature the drum line quite so prominently, or perhaps even try a placement behind the drum major, perhaps somewhere in the stands, but in front of the crowd?
Anyway, thanks for the input. I love what I’ve managed to see so far of the BRHS website. For some reason I’m having trouble locating our schedule of performances other than those at scheduled games, but there does not appear to be a competition we’re attending this weekend. We probably did perform in the Yamaha Cup last year, but my daughter is a freshman member, so I was not involved with the Marching Band at that point… part of the reason I’m on a steep learning curve in figuring out the best way to capture audio now. 😉
Again, thanks for the detailed and very helpful reply.
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Here’s the URL for one marching band video with the audio pulled entirely from a Sony PCM-D50 (unit set at about waist level, pointed at the rough center of mass for the marching band). 44.1khz/ 24 bit sampling. Post-processed in Vegas Pro 8.0. Post-processing details are listed in the video description.
Video had roughly 30 mins. left of transcoding on the server site side as I typed this, so there may be a slight delay before the video is available to view.
Link to video: Montgomery Marching Band, 4 Oct. 2008 @ Pennridge Spectrum of Sound.
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I’ve just started using the D50 for just this purpose. While it doesn’t strain out ALL extraneous noise it certainly reduces it from what I was getting from other less-than-ideal approaches.
Let me say, though, that I am new to marching bands — this is my daughter’s 1st year in marching band and I’ve taken on doing video for them, and trying to work towards an acceptable practice that will not be TOO difficult or costly, as I do not have anyone among the band volunteers, at least yet, to operate any kind or complex recording setup. So when I say the D50 seems to work well, I mean it works well for something that I can set on a tripod in the middle of the running track, set a level, press record and walk up to my perch on the announcer’s stand, or wherever I’ve managed to set up the camera.
I think for information gathering purposes I’ll be posting at least an excerpt of the latest competition so people can judge for themselves (and hopefully I may get some tips for post-production where dealing with some fairly “hot” percussion is concerned when mixing audio is concerned.
I’ll post a URL once the example is up publicly somewhere.