[Andrew Somers]

Hi Travis,

The problem with outputting using a 2.4 gamma “709” profile is that Rec709 is not, and has never been, a source-referred signal of gamma 2.4. The 2.4 gamma is a display profile not an encoding profile.

The SOURCE REFERRED (i.e. camera) gamma is a parametric curve that is roughly the inverse gamma of 1.9-2.0 (i.e 1/2.0 for a curve of 0.5).

This is intended to play through a display that has a gamma higher than 2.0, although the actual display specs are NOT part of the Rec709 specification. When Rec709 was originally developed (circa 1990) playback was through CRT displays which tend to have an output gamma of 2.2-2.4 or so, depending on how the contrast and brightness is set.

This results in a total system gamma of around 1.2, and NOT a purely linear 1.0 in-to-out transfer. This is done to preserve the perception of the scene’s contrast while viewing in a darkened living room. It wasn’t until a few years ago that the ITU finally defined a standard for viewing (rec1886) that defines a display monitor with a gamma of 2.4, and Rec2035 which defines the viewing conditions of said darkened living room. (and just a few years before that, EBU tech3325 stated it should be gamma 2.28).

But the Rec709 SIGNAL spec (i.e. the way it is encoded in the output file) has NOT CHANGED – it is still a parametric curve with a gamma close to 1/2.0 — this means it is wrong to encode it with a 1/2.4 (0.42) gamma. It should still be encoded with a ~0.5 curve.

PROFILE ISSUES and 16-235 LEVELS:

There are two other things that may be tripping you up here. First of all, there are a lot of Rec709 profile floating around out there, and they are not consistent, some are “simplified”, and some are just wrong. This includes profiles that ship with Adobe products.

But also: black and white levels are NOT 0 and 255. The Rec709 spec defines that Black is 16 and white is 235 for 8 bit, and 64/940 for 10 bit. NTSC (Rec601) was the same way. But After Effects usually works with black at 0 and white at 255 (or 0.0 and 1.0 in 32 bit), this is known as “full range”. On output, black is supposed to be mapped to 16 for 8 bit or 64 for 10 bit “video” files. While in the spec, black is allowed to go lower than 16 (super black) and white higher than 235 (superwhite). But as far as the specification is concerned, 16 should be the darkest color on the monitor, and 235 should be the brightest.

You’ll notice in AE when you bring in ProRes 422 footage, you can’t even change the color interpretation:

And it’s technically not an “embedded” profile — it’s a “calibrated” profile, that is, it’s a “standard” set by the ITU, and AE is “interpreting” it. And despite having the “interpretationRules.txt” file, YUV / Y’CbCr type files don’t allow you to choose the INPUT colorspace in AE.

Legal Video Levels:
8 Bit: 16-235
10 bit: 64-940
12 bit: 256-3760

Even the Arri Alexa when shooting in LogC mode aims for the legal levels. The reason the numbers don’t indicate a black at 16 inside After Effects is that AE maps 16 to 0 if you setup your workspace inside AE as a 0-255 space.

So in essence AE “hides” the true levels being input/output from the system. And unfortunately their use of terminology and the way the dialogs are set up makes it all the more confusing.

COLOR MANAGED vs COLOR CALIBRATED WORKFLOWS

What is important is to MONITOR your workspace with a 2.4 display emulation, I’ll discuss this later under “workflow”, but it is important to remember that normally playback is not “color managed” it is “color calibrated”, which is quite different in meaning.

Remember that color TV and film were around a long time before ICC color management. Those workflows managed (and still do today) because the camera, display, and the broadcast chain in between are all calibrated to a set standard of color and transfer curves, etc.

ICC color management is very different — the idea is to convert the digital color values of image data from one color space, then into an intermediate “connection” colorspace (usually CIEXYZ) that is neutral, and then converting it to the other space. There’s a ton of math to make that happen which is why AE slows down so much when color management is on), it’s more efficient to just have everything calibrated, as it is in a broadcast chain.

One advantage of color management is the ability to emulate different forms of output using Display Color Management, where your calibrated and properly profiled monitor can display different view conditions, such as Rec1886, while working in a completely different space like 32 bit Linear Gamma (1.0) and P3 primaries.

Side note: if you are using Display Color Management, checking/unchecking “Compensate for Scene Referred Profiles” will cause a Rec709 clip to appear visibly lighter/darker — but it does not change the RGB values.

Which brings us back to profiles. The 2.4 gamma Rec709 profile is a VIEWING profile, useable for proofing or emulating an output monitor. It is for display only, it is not a profile to be used for encoding the TRC into your output (unless you specifically want to “bake in” that crunched look).

An example workflow is (using a Linear gamma 1.0 workflow with a Rec709 output target).

1) Set the project colorspace to 32 bit Linear, and an unbounded sRGB or Rec709 profile (sRGB and Rec709 have identical primaries and whitepoint). Turn ON “Compensate for Scene Referred Profiles”.

I recommend Elle’s “Well Behaved” V4 profiles, downloadable here: https://github.com/ellelstone/elles_icc_profiles/tree/master/profiles I’ve found these to be the most accurate of profiles, with true Rec709 TRCs.

In particular for linearizeing into the working space, and for Rec709 output: Rec709-elle-V4-rec709.icc

Setting for workspace:

2) Setup a custom Display Simulation, using Rec709-elle-V4-rec709.iccas the first output stage, set “Preserve RGB” so that the display profile (a Rec1886 aka a Rec709 @2.4 gamma) takes this data and then displays it the way a 2.4 gamma monitor would.

Setting for simulation:

3) Now do all your work — when you output, you output to the Rec709-elle-V4-rec709.icc profile, which put on the standard Rec709 TRC, but it will look the way you were working on it when you send it through a 2.4 gamma reference monitor. Essentially, once you output the video, color management is over. Downstream it is being played back in non-managed (but hopefully calibrated) displays.

——————

This ended up a bit longer than I intended, but I hope it was helpful. This very question/problem comes up about every two weeks, partly I think because Adobe isn’t doing a very good job explaining how to use their color management. Adobe still has tutorials online suggesting using ProPhoto as a working space for film and video, which is a terrible space to use — it uses a D50 Illuminant, while Most film and video is based (or very close) on D65, and ProPhoto is way too big and creates negative color values and imaginary colors that can wrap around and result in bad values in DPX outputs and other unpredictable garbage.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

Members

[Andrew Somers]

Hi Liz, the shadow is now caused by the hole in the fairy footage – as I recall the glow effect was an adjustment layer, which is now below the bag and above the fairy?

The quick fix: Just put a SOLID layer right below the fairy footage with the hole, and set the color of the solid to be close to the fairy’s dress. It won’t be seen as its covered by the bag, but it will feed the effect on the adjustment layer.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Hi Elza,

Based on looking at this data, I’m thinking it is possible that you made a quicktime subclip of just the section you need from the camera master or image sequence. Yes?

I’d like to draw your attention to the first two key numbers for each pin — notice they are essentially identical. meaning that frames 469 and 470 are identical (duplicates.)

Adobe After Effects 6.0 Keyframe Data

Units Per Second 25
Source Width 2048
Source Height 858
Source Pixel Aspect Ratio 1
Comp Pixel Aspect Ratio 1

Effects ADBE Corner Pin #1 ADBE Corner Pin-0001
Frame X pixels Y pixels
469 1314.17 241.406
470 1315.17 241.406
471 1317.11 241.125
472 1318.11 240.125
473 1319.93 240.065
474 1320.69 240.176

Effects ADBE Corner Pin #1 ADBE Corner Pin-0002
Frame X pixels Y pixels
469 1326.71 240.294
470 1327.71 240.294
471 1329.79 240.012
472 1330.79 239.012
473 1332.75 238.974
474 1333.64 239.068
475 1334.49 239.208

The *exact* 1 pixel X shift really just indicates that the rotospline was manually nudged between frames 0 and 1, but there is no unique mocha generated tracking data that would indicate a different frame. It is highly unlikely that Mocha would generate a perfect 1.0 pixel shift in the X axis only based on image data.

Here’s the reason I bring this all up: There is a bug in quicktime that sometimes causes the FIRST FRAME to be repeated once, IF the IN point is set to the very head of the clip.

When this occurs in Mocha, it results in the keyframes being OFF by one whole frame.

So either there is no mocha generated tracking data for the frame numbered 469, OR it is the very head of a quicktime clip and as a result that frame is repeated for 469 and 470, which will cause a one frame OFFSET when the tracking data is pulled into AE if you use frame 469 as the alignment point.

There may be another explanation for the duplicated frames at the head such as a conversion error resulting in a duplicate frame. Problems with frame rate interpretations can also lead to head frames (and other frames) being duplicated. But it all leads me to believe that the keys are currently one frame late.

That is the best explanation I can come up with given the data I have about your project. If it is not shifted keys, and you do use RG Pin, remember that Mocha has a different setting to export to RG Pin vs the regular AE Pin.

Best of luck!

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Can you post here the keyframe data as the file exported from Mocha?

I can’t step through the youtube video frame by frame, but is there any chance the keyframes are offset by 1 frame? Have you tried aligning them all 1 frame later or earlier?

Also, barring a solution and in view of your deadline, Red Giant corner pin has some extra features that can help manually massage such issues.

And if nothing else, keyframe the layer transform position to compensate.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Check:

1) Are all your keyframes in After Effects on the leading edge of the frame (zoom all the way into the timeline to confirm).

2) Is your footage interpreted as 25fps EVERYWHERE ? (This problem *looks* like a possible frame rate issue, wherein some keyframes are skipped due to different frame rates.)

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Tip 1) Duvetyne is your friend. https://www.filmtools.com/expendables/fabric/duvetyne.html

Tip 2) No lights on the camera side of the front glass, unless they are attached to the glass with no light leaking out away from the tank.

Tip 3) Douglas Trumbull/Scott Squires used multiple water densities (salt and fresh, and I seem to remember Ammonia being used per an AmCin magazine I can’t find at the moment). Link of Scott’s recollections:

https://effectscorner.blogspot.com/2009/02/cloud-tank-effect.html

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Hi Omar,

Keep in mind that a lot of the render engines for C4D rely on multiple CPU cores, and rendering CGI is one place where more cores really really counts (which is why CUDA/OPENCL renderers are so much the rage now).

That said, your CPU: Intel Core i7-8700k (3.7 GHz, turbo 4.7 GHz – 6 cores) & RAM: 32 GB DDR4 should be more than fine for non-multiframe rendering in AE.

Not sure about prices in your country, but here in the US, prices for the 1070 are pretty close to the 1060, and the 1070 has twice the core count. If you can swing a little more, I highly encourage the 1070 as any process that takes advantage of CUDA or OpenCL will benefit. This many many of the built in AE effects, the ray tracer, and for C4D ProRender which is included, not to mention Octane and Redshift.

In fact, so much of this kind of processing is moving toward the GPU, I’d think that is the best place to put a little extra. both in cores and GPU Ram.

As I think about it. I’d make the better graphics card a higher priority than a PCIe SSD. If you had to get a SATA SSD to be able to get the 1070, then I think you’d be happier with the overall performance and render speeds for everything that is (increasingly so) GPU based.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

From what I can tell, neither of those cameras has a real still-frame mode. If this is correct, you would be better off with just about anything else that is still-oriented, and it doesn’t have to be a dSLR. A mirrorless camera would do you fine. But those cameras you list won’t.

The software you have isn’t an issue, but the camera IS.
You might take the question over to the Cinematography forum here.

ON THE SUBJECT OF CAPTURE FOR STOP MOTION:

There are a few things that are “must have’s” for doing this kind of work. You don’t ned a “really expensive” camera, but there are some things you can not do without.

KEEP IN MIND that stop motion is incredibly tedious and takes a HUGH amount of your time, and you will be UTTERLY DISTRAUGHT if you spend a week doing a few seconds of stop motion only to discover it is useless because of the camera setup.

MUST HAVES:

OTHER THAN the actual camera you need:

1) A VERY stable camera mount. A cheap aluminum tripod is NOT going to work for this. You need something that is heavy, solid, and mounts the camera in such a way that it can’t move. And if you DO want the camera to move, it needs to be via a gearing mechanism so that you can stop motion animate it accurately.

2) Color temperature stable lighting. You need the lighting to be consistent from image to image, otherwise you’ll have annoying flicker. CFLs with a high CRI (above 91) are inexpensive and fairly stable once they are up to operating temperature (wait 30 minutes). Or daylight balanced LEDs are even better.

2b) But the lights *also* need to be on very stable mounts, so that they are not easily knocked over or moved, which would be a disaster for the shot you are currently animating. (and if the lights are adjustable LED type, those adjustments need to be taped over or locked down).

3) And of course the platform for your animated scene needs to be super stable and immobile — you’re going to be reaching over, under, etc and bumping it constantly. If you move it by accident your “shot” is over.

For the ACTUAL CAMERA, you need:

1) A camera that has fully MANUAL settings for *everything*. You can not use automatic anything. No auto focus, no auto exposure, no auto white balance. Since you are taking one (or two) image frames at a time, there can be no change in these things. And if you do want to try something tricky like changing focus or exposure, it needs to be setup with a rig so that you can accurately animate the setting as part of the stop motion.

2) A remote trigger to take an exposure. During the process of stop motion, you never want to touch the actual camera *FOR THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE SHOT* no matter how many frame/days it takes to complete. Don’t touch the camera, not even to remove an SD card — you want to be hands free.

3) This also means that if you are going to buy a dSLR, you want one that has “mirror lockup” so you can lock the mirror out of the way to eliminate the shake that occurs when the mirror flips up for each exposure. And to add, a dSLR is an ideal camera for this kind of work.

TIP — dSLR important note: You must cover the optical viewfinder with BLACK TAPE otherwise light will leak in and cause exposure flashes. Since you don’t want to touch the camera, you’ll be looking at the LCD or external monitor anyway.

Camera “should have’s” that you can probably get by without to start:

1) Since the camera will be on your entire session(s) of doing the actual animation, you might want an external power supply. Now a typical dSLR is probably going to go into power saving mode a lot, and the batteries do last a long time — but remember that you don’t want to touch the camera until you are done animating that setup.

2) An external monitor hooked up to the camera so you can really see the shot you are working on (of course this implies having a camera with such a capability, but most decent dSLRs do).

3) A lens (or lenses) that have all the controls on the rings (focus, aperture, zoom) so that you can tape those controls so they don’t move for the duration of the shot. If you want to animate them, focus for instance, then get a follow focus rig so that you can make the adjustments easily on a frame by frame basis.

4) A good spot-type light meter, and a grey card, is much better then using the internal camera meter.

TIP: At the start of each day, after the lighting is warmed up, check the exposure with a spot meter and grey card. The grey card set at a designated place without interfering with the model, and at the same angle and position (mark it) and stand in the same spot (mark it) and take three readings a few seconds apart (averaging them) to make sure the lighting level hasn’t changed. Do this also at the end of each day and before and after an extended break. If there is an unwanted change in light levels (such as a light left on or off that shouldn’t be), this will help you catch the mistake before continuing.

Software:

As for software — you can just bring in a set of numbered frames (numbered as per the camera) as an image sequence into After Effects, and there is will appear as a single clip that you can adjusted and color correct using the many tools inside AE. AE even allows you to import RAW sequences.

Nevertheless, the software part of this equation is practically trivial — your shooting setup is what is going to make or break your animations!

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Walter Said:

Doing something as “simple” as separating the UI from the renderer meant re-writing core functionality

Hey Walter, I hope I didn’t come across as bashing Adobe, since I am a fan for the most part. I also didn’t intend to trivialize any development issues with separating UI from other functions — When I said Adobe didn’t “need” to free the GUI anymore, I meant that the capability in the OS and Hardware layers was there to accommodate such a change. Nevertheless I understand that priorities on “what features to develop in a next upgrade” are a complicated process based on available resources, user demands, competing products, etc. etc.

All tools have issues and workarounds — it’s just a matter of picking the right set for the tasks at hand.

Adobe Ae/Ps/Ai/Pr + MochaPro + C4D is a pretty comprehensive set of tools that I happen to like, and know the pitfalls and workarounds therein.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com

[Andrew Somers]

Hey Omar, “multi-threading” is one of those “catch all” terms that people may use to describe software “behavior”, though at its most basic, “multithreading” means that an application/OS/CPU combination are able to process more than one “line” or “piece” of code at a time. Multi-processor means that those multiple threads can be spread over more than one CPU.

Most modern applications are multi threaded and multi-processor aware if for no other reason than the underlying core OS of modern systems are built to be multi-threaded and multi-processor, and applications are really just an extension of the OS’s API. That said, applications can go outside the OS in some areas and optimize their multi-T&P for their own app, whereas the OS is probably thread optimized for “general” computing.

Nevertheless the software might not always take full advantage, and this might be exhibited in its behavior as in GUI lockouts. Some apps are simply stuck in the dark ages — BouJou 5.0.2 has been their “latest version” for over 6 years. It’s a $10,000 tracking app, and is very obviously single processor. Nevertheless under a modern OS like El Capitan it still spawns 28 threads and peaks the CPU at 106% more because the underlying OS and hardware (i.e. CPU) just conduct business that way.

Nevertheless, I’d more or less call BouJou single threaded.

After Effects hasn’t been *that* bad since I think CS1(?) at any rate, it would appear that the multi threading in After Effects is more closely tied to the OS’s MP API, at least until CC15. To improve the performance with machine with more than 2 cores, they added “multi frame” rendering which basically just spawned multiple render nodes in the background to fill up more CPU slots. A multithread of multithreads if you will.

I’m not an engineer for Adobe, but I’d venture that they decided to break away into a new schema starting with CC15 that uses more direct hardware calls instead of API calls, but again this is just a guess on my part..

As to GUI lockup – I honestly don’t think Adobe had a real “need” to lock the GUI since at least CS3. But there might have been some conflict with class libraries, or maybe it was part of a longer term marketing plan. As in “The GUI will lockup during render UNTIL we release our new multi-thread schema” to provide, as always, the continuous incentive to upgrade.

But to call AE single threaded is (for over a decade) pretty plainly wrong.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
https://www.GeneralTitles.com