You guys didn’t really add HDV support. Boo!

[Floh Peters]

[Steve Mullen] “They, simply put, are wrong. There is NOTHING gained by “getting out of HDV” as the data that are encoded cannot possibly become “better” data nor are the “bits” any better preserved in another codec. “

You, simply put, are wrong here. And I am not speaking about gaining any additional Data/colordepth/whatever by converting HDV to something else, and not about “better” data, but about a more manageable file and codec format, without the restrictions of handling a long-gop MPEG2 stream.

[Steve Mullen] “PS: it’s possible that M100 has a rendering engine that forces renders to be in the SAME codec as the SOURCE codec. If this is true, then on the M100, one wouldn’t want to natively edit HDV. But that is a failing of the M100. “

They don´t, and (unlike FCP) can freely select into what codec you want to render. Media 100 even supports codec mixing on a timeline much longer than FCP (and it actually really mixes all codecs in realtime without needing to render them before mastering).

[Steve Mullen] “Both FCP and MC NEVER use HDV for rendering. Rendering is always done to ProRes or DNxHD.”

In FCP5 you had to render into your sequence codec (or into AIC) for HDV (no ProRes in FCP5), and you still have to render into HDV codec if you want to master back to a HDV tape.

[Steve Mullen] “IMHO, non-native editing is simply unacceptable in today’s world of quad-core chips. “

That´s your opinion, but Apple announced ProRes especially for the reason of getting over this format chaos. They have said publicly on several occasions that most likely new codecs (like Panasonics new AVCHD) will not be supported natively but via conversion due to the fact that manufacturers are starting to create their “codec of the week”, and that they simply will not try to catch up and support everything.

I think this was my last post on this subject, since I don´t think we will find an agreement here. I think it is unnecessary to support native HDV editing, and we would never think about e,g, mastering our projects back to HDV (which more or less would be the only reason why staying in HDV could make sense for us; but even then you would have to rearrange the GOP structure for the whole timeline to match the HDV specs, which means you have to render anyway). HDV support with the realtime transcoding is working excellent for us, and I am glad to get out of HDV as soon as possible. Most of our footage is touched up in one or another way sooner or later (e.g. Color Graded or distributed to the web for review), and it is much easier to do that with a Quicktime file in your Codec of choice than with something that is a mix of HDV MPEG2 files with other QuickTime formats. So if you say that it is better for you to stay in HDV, then do that; for us it definitely is not an option we would use.

[Steve Mullen]

My last post too.

“And I am not speaking about gaining any additional Data/colordepth/whatever by converting HDV to something else, and not about “better” data, but about a more manageable file and codec format, without the restrictions of handling a long-gop MPEG2 stream.”

Once again a myth. What “restrictions” on long GOP MPEG-2? It’s in a file on your disk. It’s QT just like any other QT codec! (Why do you say it’s “different?” Share it with anybody. Much better to send HDV via the net than ProRes. Your NLE inputs HDV just like any other codec. YOU have no awareness of what source is in what codec. Totally invisible to the editor.

“In FCP5 you had to render into your sequence codec (or into AIC) for HDV (no ProRes in FCP5), and you still have to render into HDV codec if you want to master back to a HDV tape.”

And, in 2005 gas cost a few bucks. What’s your point — who didn’t upgrade for $500?

And, of course, you have render to WHATEVER export codec you want to use. So when you make a BD disk you’ll wind-up rendering to MPEG-2, AVC, or VC1-1. No matter what — HD export via a file requires rendering to SOMETHING long GOP at some point.

PS: Apple may say no more codecs, but note they just gave us a nice complete set of XDCAM codecs. Clearly, Sony expect folks to edit XDCAM natively. (AVC-Intra and AVCHD must go to ProRes today, but not in the future.)

Best Regards,

Steve Mullen

Digital Video Consulting–Las Vegas

http://www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

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“Sony V1 and FX7 HANDBOOK” at http://www.knowledge-download.com/V1-FX7

“Sony HVR-Z1 and HDR-FX1 HANDBOOK” at: http://www.knowledge-download.com/SonyHDV

“EDITION 2: JVC GY-HD100 HANDBOOK” at: http://www.knowledge-download.com/JVCHDV