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Yesterday’s Emmys & FCP X.
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[Bill Davis] “and in the end – they rolled the SD stuff off DIRECTLY into FCP X via either S-Video or even Composite cables “
There is no way to do DIRECT into FCP X via either S-Video or even Composite cables. Connected to the computer how? You can’t plug those directly into the computer Via a capture card? FCX doesn’t work with capture cards for input….only output. The only way to capture directly into FCX would be to convert the signal to DV.
[Bill Davis] “or maybe what I use to do – directly into a basic DV deck like a DSR-20. “
Exactly. But VHS captured as DV vs VHS captured via a capture card as ProRes or other higher end SD format would look VERY different. DV has a stair step quality to it that, when you blow it up to HD size, would be very apparent.
[Bill Davis] “So a Terranex wouldn’t have enough pixels to mathematically improve to do much good. “
Well, using that and capturing as a non-DV format would produce much better results than capturing as DV and blowing up. Again, it’s the DV format that is in question here. Not SD blown up vs capturing as HD via Terranex. Although sorry, I disagree with Adam here. Using hardware scalers DOES do something to the image to make it better. I know that AJA’s trick was to slightly soften the image to help mask the pixels as they got larger. A trick that the Terranex also does. Scaling directly in the apps doesn’t do that, so the pixels just get bigger and are more pronounced.
I can tell you that I definitely see a difference if I scale in the app vs using a Terranex or AJA. This is something you might need to see for yourself, Bill, in order to believe it. It’s not as Adam points out…just a scaling of a photo. Yes, if you did that it would look the same, but there is a plugin for Photoshop called GENUINE FRACTALS that also does some mojo to help mask the pixel scaling.
I’ll read the thread to see what was done.
Shane
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[Shane Ross] “There is no way to do DIRECT into FCP X via either S-Video or even Composite cables. Connected to the computer how? You can’t plug those directly into the computer Via a capture card? FCX doesn’t work with capture cards for input….only output. The only way to capture directly into FCX would be to convert the signal to DV.
“That’s trivial Shane. I’ve done it VERY successfully with a $250 BlackMagic Video Recorder Dongle (my target was H-264 archiving and it had real-time encoding on-board – so it was just play and capture. BlackMagic and AJA have lots of inexpensive boxes that do Composite capture and transcode to USB etc.
As I understand it, the 3.5 Mbps DV stream is MORE than enough to totally capture every detail of an analog SD NTSC signal without breaking a sweat with complete fidelity. (at least the fidelity allowed by the reading unit – which is likely to be the limiting factor.) That was why I came to see the idea of hauling out a Terrenex as significant overkill for these transfers.
You put a garden hose stream into a bucket, the amount of water remains the same whether that bucket is emptying into a sink or a storm drain.
FWIW.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Bill Davis] “As I understand it, the 3.5 Mbps DV stream is MORE than enough to totally capture every detail of an analog SD NTSC signal without breaking a sweat with complete fidelity”
Completely untrue.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Oliver Peters] “Completely untrue.”
Then enlighten me.
Is there a white paper or properly curated test somewhere you can reference where SD off tape captured on one of these systems is compared to SD captured through a Terenex or something similar and can be objectively demonstrated to be visually distinct at a level a viewer can see?
I’d be happy to change my opinion if that info is out there somewhere.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Bill Davis] “I’ve done it VERY successfully with a $250 BlackMagic Video Recorder Dongle”
FCX captures from a capture card now? if so, this is new. i’m not trying to sound snippish at this, I’m truly curious. Because one of the BIG issues I had with FCX is the inability to capture from tape via a capture device…unless it was HDV or DV. So this isn’t trivial, this is a major thing.
[Bill Davis] “(my target was H-264 archiving and it had real-time encoding on-board – so it was just play and capture. “
Did you capture, with FCX, from tape…via a BMD device? Or did you capture with the BMD capture software, and bring that into FCX? THIS is what I’m asking…and this is a major thing.
[Bill Davis] “As I understand it, the 3.5 Mbps DV stream is MORE than enough to totally capture every detail of an analog SD NTSC signal without breaking a sweat with complete fidelity.”
But it converts it to a DV signal. In order to capture via firewire, which is the way that I understood FCX to only be able to do…to capture via Firewire, the signal it received had to be a DV signal, or HDV. And a DV signal isn’t a full SD, uncompressed signal. It’s compressed to DV. A DV signal and an SD uncompressed signal are very different. DV is compressed…yes it is. I guess I”m going to have to post a couple test images to explain this.
[Bill Davis] “That was why I came to see the idea of hauling out a Terrenex as significant overkill for these transfers. “
A Terranex is for UPCONVERTING that image to HD. Because it will convert the SD signal to an HD signal and produce better looking results than simply scaling the video in FCX. Again, if I need to test this for you to see, I will. But many broadcast engineers and online editors see the difference.
[Bill Davis] “You put a garden hose stream into a bucket, the amount of water remains the same whether that bucket is emptying into a sink or a storm drain. “
UH…not really. If you compress an SD signal to DV, that’s throwing out some data. That’s like using a soaker hose to transport water…some water is lost on the way. DV doesn’t compress the signal and then UNCOMPRESS it on the other end. It’s a DV signal…video is compressed to fit that stream.
Shane
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[Bill Davis] “Is there a white paper or properly curated test somewhere you can reference where SD off tape captured on one of these systems is compared to SD captured through a Terenex or something similar and can be objectively demonstrated to be visually distinct at a level a viewer can see?”
Again…the use of the Terranex isn’t to simply capture SD as SD…it’s to UPCONVERT it to HD. To capture SD as SD, the use of a capture card, any capture card…AJA, BMD, Matrox, etc…will do. They pass an uncompressed signal through to the computer, and the computer is what does the compression…to ProRes, or Uncompressed, or DV if you want. And ProRes and Uncompressed have higher data rates than DV, and preserve more of the image. DV compresses the image..converts it to the DV codec, which has a stairstep quality to it.
Would you trust me to provide examples? I can capture a tape via my AJA Kona 3…capture the same tape via BMD Ultrastudio 4K Extreme…and then routed thru my DV deck. And then also capture upconverted via the BMD, and AJA…and Terranex if you want (I can borrow one)…and then scale the image in FCX for comparison. Will you trust that?
Shane
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[Bill Davis] “Then enlighten me.”
1. DV is 480 high versus 486 in the SD stream.
2. Color space is 4:1:1 versus 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 in some SD signals.
3. It is highly compressed versus potentially uncompressed.– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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Thanks Oliver, I did forget to include actual figures when I talked about the footage being compressed.
Shane
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[Shane Ross] “FCX captures from a capture card now? if so, this is new. i’m not trying to sound snippish at this, I’m truly curious. Because one of the BIG issues I had with FCX is the inability to capture from tape via a capture device…unless it was HDV or DV. So this isn’t trivial, this is a major thing.”
Now I understand the problem. You’re still thinking that “a capture card” in the old context of something that sits in a desktop computer.
THIS is also a capture card.
The PCB board is simply in the body of the unit. Like everything about computers, the functions have miniaturized and it’s no longer REQUIRED that a card sit inside the computer.
Not for a long time now.
(I’d love to discuss this more, but I’ve got a boatload of deadline work heading my way this afternoon. I’ll try to pop in as things ease up.)
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Bill Davis] “Now I understand the problem. You’re still thinking that “a capture card” in the old context of something that sits in a desktop computer. “
No…I’m not. I also said, in that above quote you pulled, “a capture device.” I have the Ultrastudio Extreme 4K…external box that sits on my desk. Before that, AJA IoXT…external box that sits on my desk. These are capture devices, I simply say “capture card” out of habit. I know what I’m talking about.
[Bill Davis] “The PCB board is simply in the body of the unit. Like everything about computers, the functions have miniaturized and it’s no longer REQUIRED that a card sit inside the computer.
Not for a long time now.
(I’d love to discuss this more, but I’ve got a boatload of deadline work heading my way this afternoon. I’ll try to pop in as things ease up.)”
Yeah…go ahead and be snippish and jerkish towards me as if I don’t know what I’m talking about. I know exactly what that is. And I know that the exact device you are using there was designed to capture and compress to H.264 any video signal fed to it. That’s it’s express purpose, capture and convert to H.264. So it doesn’t bring in an uncompressed SD signal.
But you have yet to answer my question…how do you directly capture video into FCP-X? What capture DEVICE can you use, within the FCP-X interface, to capture video? Does that device you post do that? That is what I have been asking for 2-3 posts now. HOW was the video signal captured directly into FCX?
Shane
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