XDCAM vs. P2

[Mike Most — account bouncing, bad address]

>>Sony wants between $11K and 20K for a deck to read what is in essence a modified blueray disk. They >>are also selling the Playstation 3, which is Blueray for around $500.00 this holiday season. Seems >>kinda unfair to charge 20-40X for the same media.

Not to demean what you’re saying, but it sounds to me like a rather silly and self serving rationalization. The XDCam player is a full editing machine, it understands timecode, it can deal with the file structure and directory structure that the XDCam format supplies, and it is directly supported by Sony’s professional video division. Just because the media is physically similar doesn’t mean it isn’t a different, professional, and thus limited audience product. The Volvo XC90 SUV, the Lincoln LS, and the Jaguar X type are all built on the same basic platform. So are the Toyota Camry and the Lexus LX330. But nobody in their right mind would argue that these things are the same product, or that they should be at similar price points. Saying things should be priced based on their raw component cost is to ignore the realities of product design, product development costs, intended markets, and potential sales volume, as well as anticipated level of support – not to mention what the intended market will bear. All of these things can and do contribute to the pricing of any product, electronic or otherwise.

[Eleventy]

[Mike Most] “Not to demean what you’re saying, but it sounds to me like a rather silly and self serving rationalization. The XDCam player is a full editing machine, it understands timecode, it can deal with the file structure and directory structure that the XDCam format supplies, and it is directly supported by Sony’s professional video division. Just because the media is physically similar doesn’t mean it isn’t a different, professional, and thus limited audience product.”

I agree. The XDCam player isn’t overpriced for what it is. Point is that you need the player for editing. Yes, you can use your camera, but then the camera is tied down, and this one works at half speed( which is incredibly slow compared to P2). This adds an extra 11K$ to your investment. With P2, the most expensive option is the 5-card reader for 2K$, or you can get by with any laptop with a PCMCIA-slot or a 100$ PCMCIA-PCI card for PC.

[Darren Kelly]

Yes, I appreciate the other marvelous things the XDCAM-HD player deck can do, but guys, if you think it justifies the price, please go ahead, buy one. There is timecode and other broadcast professional features in decks that Mr. Sony sells for less than $2K. But when you put that same stuff, already designed, etc suddenly a glorified DVD burner sells for up to $20K – yes, that’s $20K for something that will also rwite back to the disk.

Remember, the author is looking for our opinions? We’re suppose to be free to state them, not have to defend them? Why not write something that supports XDCAMHD if you feel strongly about it.

DBK

[Nigel]

Thank you guys. Great input so far. I am simply looking for comparisons on the XDCAM workflow from production to post, same for P2, whether it is HD or SD, does not matter.

I understand about renting, but getting stories from users who have used both is good and a bit of healthy debate on which is most suitable for certain shooting and editing situations is only a good thing.

After all, if Sony were the only maker out there and Pannasonic, JVC, Canon, Ikegami, Infinity and er Red; well almost for the latter, it would be dull and Sony would rest on their laurels. Having competition keeps the other guys on their toes.

Personally, I am a bit scared of P2 as it could die a death over the next few years. Laptops no longer support the slots for this old technology and Panasonic promised at NAB 2003 (3 years ago) that P2 cards would double in size and half in price every year. Now, 3 years ago when they said that they had an 4 GB card for $675. In 3 years it is still the same and Panasonic even admit that they might never reach 32GB cards; not even in 10 years.

I would hate to buy into all that only to find that 4 years from now I have a wallet full of P2 cards worth a few cents and a worthless camera. Remember those guys who paid $15,000 for a 2GB HD back in the early 80’s, or $2,000 for a 64MB stick of RAM 😉 could happen all over again with this P2 thing.

As for Sony XDCAM HD, I think the same could happen. It would not surprise me if this format died 3 years from now due to lack of sales and take up. In the UK the XDCAM did not do well at all, admittedly the XDCAM HD is doing better, but not anywhere near as good as P2 from what I’ve heard.

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[iMan] ” Panasonic promised at NAB 2003 (3 years ago) that P2 cards would double in size and half in price every year. Now, 3 years ago when they said that they had an 4 GB card for $675. In 3 years it is still the same and Panasonic even admit that they might never reach 32GB cards; not even in 10 years.”

Hi,

First when we introduced P2 three years ago, the 2GB card was the only card available. It was $1700 or so. Then the 4GB card was talked about but almost one year later it came along at $2000. Over time it has gone down in price to its current price today at $550. Of course this past winter we introduced the 8GB card and that started at $2200, and currently is at $1400. It will likely go down in price as we get closer to the 16GB cards which are slated for this fall. So your information seems to be a bit off in the pricing and availablity of the P2 cards.

So not sure who you are talking to at Panasonic, but right now I would say perhaps they are not in the right loop.

Best,

jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Gary Adcock]

[iMan] “I would hate to buy into all that only to find that 4 years from now I have a wallet full of P2 cards worth a few cents and a worthless camera. Remember those guys who paid $15,000 for a 2GB HD back in the early 80’s, or $2,000 for a 64MB stick of RAM 😉 could happen all over again with this P2 thing.”

iMan

it is happening everyday in every tech product you touch .
What you are asking for cannot be accomplished with the advancing state of technology. My first HD suite 6 years ago had nearly
750G of usable storage fast enough to be able to do uncompressed HD editing (48 drives in 4 enclosures over Dual channel SCSI) and cost nearly $100K

The same amount of storage for an uncompressed 1080 workflow TODAY is barely 1/10th of that. (I currently a testing a 3.5T fibre array from GTech that will ship for less than $10K and do over 300mgs a second)

DVCPROHD makes that cost 1/100th as much as i paid just 6 years ago.
In 2000 I dreamed of being able to afford a single terrabyte of storage, I did a P2 shoot in italy in march and carried 6 -160gig
G-mini drives and it only added about 3 kilos in my suitcase. – and all were fast enough to edit the DVCPROHD imagery I shot.

you just need to decide if change for you is to be
evolution (slow and arduous) or revolution (instantaneous)

you should learn about Moore’s law (attributed in 1965 to George Moore co-founder of Intel)

Moore’s law is the empirical observation that the complexity of integrated circuits, with respect to minimum component cost, doubles every 24 months. (everything becomes 2x as fast and 1/2 the cost every 24 months)

or

A similar law has held for hard disk storage cost per unit of information. The rate of progression in disk storage over the past decades has actually sped up more than once, corresponding to the utilization of error correcting codes, the magnetoresistive effect and the giant magnetoresistive effect. The current rate of increase in hard drive capacity is roughly similar to the rate of increase in transistor count and has been dubbed Kryder’s law.
However, recent trends show that this rate is dropping, and has not been met for the last three years.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law>

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL
gary@studio37.com

[Rennie Klymyk]

[iMan] “Personally, I am a bit scared of P2 as it could die a death over the next few years. Laptops no longer support the slots for this old technology”

That just means that miraculously, the R&D team at the computer industry wasn’t sleeping with the R&D team at Panny. My 1st digital camera used pcmcia cards but then CF (compact flash) Cards came out. I purchased an adapter that looked like the front half of a pcmcia card with a slot in the back that you could plug a Compact Flash card into. I bought a 96 MB CF card for $450.00 and never looked back. My camera was way more efficient.

[iMan] “and Panasonic promised at NAB 2003 (3 years ago) that P2 cards would double in size and half in price every year. Now, 3 years ago when they said that they had an 4 GB card for $675. In 3 years it is still the same and Panasonic even admit that they might never reach 32GB cards; not even in 10 years”

I don’t know where these numbers came from but I don’t recall anything like it. Panny surprised us all when the 8GB cards dropped this spring to $1400.00 just when the 1st. wave of buyers was busyly buying up the cameras as fast as they could make em.

[iMan] “I would hate to buy into all that only to find that 4 years from now I have a wallet full of P2 cards worth a few cents and a worthless camera.”

As has been pointed out earlier, buy eliminating expensive hi definition heads in a camera we can shoot HD frame by frame for $6000.00! (Plus tool up). The cameras do what they do so there will always be demand for the P2 cards. You can write HD video on P2 for a good 10 years once you have them. Perhaps Panny will make a dual port in future that will use the old P2 and some holographic or other type when it comes along. (my newer digital still cam uses CF and/or SD cards in a dual port) The fact is a camera that does what it does will be very usfull for many years. In 4 years you could be shooting HD in a camera that is totally paid off and you aren’t buying tape and wasting time logging. By then blueray will be down around where dvd-r is now in price. I see the HVX200 like the Sony VX-1000 was when it 1st came out as the worlds’ first 3 chip digital camera. I know people who still use them. They still do the same fine job as when they came out. Japan wanted to go to Hi Def 20 years ago but the rest of the world was still enfatuated with color television. Now we are all ready and going Hi Def and it’s craze should last at least as long as color television so the purchase of HD equipment will be a solid investment for many years.

[iMan] ” Remember those guys who paid $15,000 for a 2GB HD back in the early 80’s, or $2,000 for a 64MB stick of RAM 😉 could happen all over again with this P2 thing.”

Oh it will, some people will jump on early and enjoy the ride. Those are probably the guys who have already bought in to this new technology with out blinking an eye. The rest of us just stand around and watch.

“everything is broken”

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Thanks Gary for that learned response as it points to the beauty of P2, once your footage is served up as data and not as media, the world of costs are driven by a completely different industry than that of proprietary formats, tape or media prices and machines that make it happen.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Rennie Klymyk]

iman
I just wanted to say please don’t take my comments in my last response to heart. After reading the entire thread I understand you were merely putting the concerns and fears we all share into words (save for the P2 pricing part). Thanks for starting this thread, it’s an interesting topic.

“everything is broken”

[Nigel]

Nothing taken to heart.

Thanks guys.