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What’s Wrong With FCP
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[David Roth Weiss] “More importantly, why is anyone today doing an online/offline workflow anyway, much less offling on Avid and onling on FCP and what exactly does any business actually gain from it?”
This workflow is perfectly valid actually. I work with several clients who own DV or SD only versions of Avid and they’re cutting High Def shows. Or they don’t have access to all the filters and effects that Studio 2 has.
So they cut the entire show or project as they want, then the bring the whole project here to finish. Import an OMF via Automatic Duck and away we go to the finish edit including graphics, sound design and color grading.
What the client gains from this is using what they are comfortable with, Avid. Then they get my almost 20 years Post experience to finish off the show and bring it up to High Def.
I think we’ve done near 100 projects using this workflow and its incredibly successful.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
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[walter biscardi] “I think we’ve done near 100 projects using this workflow and its incredibly successful.”
Walter,
As always, there are always exceptions to everything.
Of course the offline/online workflow makes sense if your business is built around finishing other people’s offlines. The real question is, does offline/online make sense for the vast numbers of FCP users whose business are not built around the business of finishing?
BTW, I’m certain we can debate this until the cows come home, but this cow is leaving home right now…
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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I just wanted to add my small bit of experience in the “offline/online” world. When I first starting editing professionally for broadcast, we had an Avid editor do the offline, then I would use Automatic Duck to to the FCP online. As good as that program was at the time (3 years ago) not once did that process go smoothly. Half the time was completely MY FAULT!!! The other half, was (in my belief) FCP and it’s handling of Media Management. Eventually (after missing a few deadlines) we decided, FCP from start to finish was the way to go. Because we could capture at full rez at the beginning, we did so, but this lead us down the do everything all at once path. Essentially onlining a show as we put it together. Needless to say, this created just as much headaches as the AVID to FCP process. Finally, we decided a modified offline/online process was needed. Even though every project gets it’s own drive (storage is cheap and quick) we saw no benefit to capturing or converting to an offline format for the offline edit, so everything is captured at it’s full/native resolution. So this means that our offline edit is strictly editing and limited audio tweaking. No effects other than simple realtime transitions are added. The client is well aware, and we’ve not had one client say that this was unacceptable. At any time during the offline, we can make notes to our hearts content on graphics, transitions, audio, etc, but we leave that until we have picture lock. Once picture lock is complete, we can move on to the online process; tweaking the audio more, adding titles/graphics and effects. This process has been a great transition for those people we’ve worked with used to the old method of offline/online, and is a great tool to the rest of us, in keeping extraneous work (recapturing) from popping up and keeping projects on time and in and orderly fashion.
I know that some projects have TONS of footage and it may not seem appropriate to capture at full rez, but I really believe that’s where intermediary codecs like ProRez come into play.
Anyway, I know our process doesn’t apply to everyone, but I think it’s an important process to think about when planning the management of any project. 🙂
Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC“If God could do the tricks we can do, He’d be a happy Man.” – Peter O’Toole – “The Stuntman”
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe -
I agree with everything that has been said. However, what I am after is a system whereby picture lock is maintained rather than representing a transient state of enlightenment that can have 20 revisions to it.
To me, onlining and offlining forces things to move smoother. Producers actually have to stop changing things. Offline editors mistakes can be found and corrected. And you can have access to all of your footage on avordable storage. (When I mean all of your footage I mean, 120 hours per episode of tapes, P2, Stock footage, Roughcuts, Scratch VO, Graphics, times 10 episodes, times 3 series, times your starting season 2 of all of them.) Expensive storage representing smaller first generatioin Xsan installs. (Expanding Xsan for a fleet of old G5s is money that we do not need to spend to still make money. I do believe that ProRes or DVDPRO HD could address this issue but I am after something else. Tapeless also means that when your hard drive dies so does your show. (yes I know Walter backs up all his footage) With tape you just reload it. Until Blue ray is archiving P2 to 50GB discs (Hurry up Sony!!!) I will have an affection for tape because it does not use a computer. I know several long time producers and directors who can appreciate that.
I am preparing for when you show up and nothing works and you have to move to a different place. Proper offline/online workflows assure that everything can be repeated on a different system. Having Mp3’s, H.264, Solid baked QTs with filters on them in your timeline nested twenty layers deep from older versions of Final cut on a hard drive that just died is not the way to live. (I already have ulcers just thinking about that)
Also you do not have to have the latestest and greatest computer. Droping $8000 on a new tower every two years times 12 edit suites makes no sense to me. Avid can uprez projects from System five versions of Media Composer (That people are still using by the way) Can final cut do that? It can if you do it right and that is my point. Final cut has been out long enough that people and companies have older systems. The offline/online workflow lets them keep making money of the stuff they have while making it shine and sparkle with a newer system that is the online suite.
I love Final cut. I love that we have access to all of this but I do not see offiine/online as doing work twice (Even though it is) I see it as representing a system that still has advantages too it. I am looking to merge the old with the new, east meeets west, sugar and sweet whichs blends into a harmonious relationship like at the end of Casablanca but with less alcohol and smoking…
God forbid anybody tries to deliver an EDL from the sequence that Color sends back!!!
( I will use it when they fix it)I just have to add that I have always liked your tagline!!!
James
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[David Roth Weiss] “Of course the offline/online workflow makes sense if your business is built around finishing other people’s offlines.”
Ours isn’t. We’re just in the business of full Post Production. Doing whatever the client requires. Finishing Avid projects is just another service we offer. Finishing a project started on another system is just another service we offer.
The majority of our projects are fully edited here.
[David Roth Weiss] “The real question is, does offline/online make sense for the vast numbers of FCP users whose business are not built around the business of finishing?”
Depends on your setup. If you have a fully broadcast HD capable system and someone else does not, then you can help that person by finishing what they started.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
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[Rafael Amador] “Instead of turn the layer off again, just undo: Com+Z. You won’t loose your render.”
That does indeed work, and is what I do, but if I need to do anything else (say turn layer off, modify and effect and turn it on again to check) then that’s not going to work.
It just seems insane to me that FCP will loose it’s association to the rendered media so easily.
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[David Roth Weiss] “Of course the offline/online workflow makes sense if your business is built around finishing other people’s offlines. The real question is, does offline/online make sense for the vast numbers of FCP users whose business are not built around the business of finishing?”
For the ‘vast majority’ perhaps not. But for the type of work we’re doing in this case (series drama, across a whole series) I think it is the only way that makes sense. We have perfectly functional Avid suites to edit work, it’s unnecessary and wasteful to capture hundreds of tapes of media at full resolution when only a fraction of it will ever be needed at that resolution.
Of course there are other options and workflows available and they are absolutely workable – although spending $10k on a massive storage unit to allow us to hold a whole series of media at online res seems to fall well on the wrong side of cost/benefit.
Another benefit mentioned somewhere else was that it forces the producer/director to stop making changes – this is quite valid. In projects I’ve done that are full res from the start many have been plagued by directors who are never quite finished.
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[Dylan Reeve] “Another benefit mentioned somewhere else was that it forces the producer/director to stop making changes – this is quite valid. In projects I’ve done that are full res from the start many have been plagued by directors who are never quite finished.”
Dylan,
So, if I read you correctly, you’re arguing for a workflow that, if the truth be known, essentially says: “Hey Mr. Producer, you’ve got to stop making changes so that I can do an unnecessary upres of all your footage and so I can then go looking for all the speed changes and other things that didn’t come across and so I can then go looking for all the other things that the process introduced into our otherwise perfect timeline?
Humm… I’d rather spend my time making the client’s changes, because some of them might actully be improvements.
But, each to their own…
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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[Dylan Reeve] “Thanks David, I will look into the Boris tool again. I did look at it as an option before, but it seemed a little overkill for what I’m seeking and a little too focused on 3D-looking titles (sort of like Avid’s Marquee, which I’ve never really liked). I’ll give it another go soon.”
Dylan,
Boris 3D may be able to make 3D titles, but that’s not what most people use it for. Most people use it for exactly what you want, very simple titles.
It may look complicated, but that’s most likely because you’re not clicking on the little gray box in the Controls tab that says, “Title 3D – click for opions.” That will open up the a familiar looking and intuitive app with all of the necessary controls for making normal, but very nice titles.
All that 3D crap the name of the app implies is probably buried somewhere deep inside, cuz I’ve never even seen it, much less used it.
Hope this helps…
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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I agree with your motivations behind your opinion. It’s the same reason that an associate of mine still has tape in his camera when he shoots, despite the fact that he’s going directly to hard drive via FW (for years he’s been doing this). To me, the FCP project file is the most important piece in being an FCP editor. This is the one file that must be protected at all costs. Backed up, and rebacked up if need be. So far I’ve only worked on one project that was done on P2, and we made a backup drive of just the footage. As long as we have a project file – which we back up to CD – and something happens to the drive with the media on it, we can go to that backup, the same way we would with a tape and reconnect and be up and running in no time.
And you’re totally right; having an offline process where a finished, picture lock show is solid on tape, or otherwise insures a quick recovery should something happen to the media or even – God forbid – your FCP project file. It ties you to a process that no one can argue with. This is why in the pre-production and production phase, the client, producer, director all agree to the schedule that says offline with picture lock must be complete by said date. After that we are on to onlining and it’s separate tasks. Not to say that the offlining hasn’t been pushed before to accommodate picture tweaks. Sure it has, but no onlining takes place until we have picture lock.*
I also agree with you, as many other do here, that the media management of FCP needs an overhaul. As it’s been said before, it’s not likely to be changed any time soon do to the immense amount of code rewriting that would need to take place. BUT, I’ve not touched Media Manager, in well over two years, nor have I needed to. I learned early on, that Media Manager is a tool that when used within the most strict procedure works perfectly fine, but that procedure is so limiting that it is pointless to use.** However, if you go in knowing that you won’t use it, then you can develop a system that will achieve your goal without it. I believe this goes back to the irritating problem that WE ALL face when transitioning from something familiar to something unfamiliar; “It doesn’t work the way I’m used to things working.” That’s not just AVID, Vegas, FCP, that’s life. Our biggest obstacle is not that the program doesn’t work the way we want it, but that we try to make it work a way it doesn’t. That’s not to say that FCP doesn’t need improvement, and that the way it works is the best way. I’m absolutely sure it needs improvements in this area, but a little (or a lot) of pre-planning goes a long way in keeping the media management demons at bay…….. or at least submissive when attacked!
It’s a pain most of the time, though… all this pre-planning before you can edit. You have clients and sometimes boss’ that want to know why you’re taking so long to get started, when all they hear is how easy and cheap and quick you can do things nowadays. But as we go through these pre-planning stages, we can figure out processes that work as “bible law” and it soon becomes second nature.
I suppose I’m getting a bit off track here, but what I’m desperately trying to say (and not doing in a very eloquent or concise manor) is that I do believe in the offline and online process, but that it’s changed, and still changing from where it was. And if we as editors let our team know what the new ground rules are, we can over come obstacles like poor media management, poor handling of nests (which should be avoided like the plague anyway) etc.
For the time being, there are probably many cases where dealing with mass quantities of footage still forces us to decide if we are going to offline in a more traditional fashion. I won’t debate you there, as I’ve never encountered one because I have not worked on those types of jobs…. yet. As I said before, I think ProRes and others like it, are the biggest step forward for that type of project. Of course, I can’t even talk about ProRes, since I’m still in FCS1.
BTW, “less smoking…” OK sure. But “less alcohol?” Never! 😉
*There are exceptions to ever rule. Kubrick cut scenes from 2001 and The Shining after their initial release!
** The only way I’ve found Media Manager to work flawlessly, was to have a timeline with no transitions, no more than one layer of video, no more than 4 tracks of audio, and no filters or adjustments made to the video. It worked perfectly then!Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC“If God could do the tricks we can do, He’d be a happy Man.” – Peter O’Toole – “The Stuntman”
Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe
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