we are on our own.what now?

[Kevin Hanley]

I agree with most of what I’ve read in this thread. However, I’d like to point a few things out:

– The clients did not go to that production facility because of you. Had you not been there, someone else would have, and the possibility exists that they would have done as well as you since it sounds like the owner had provided the tools and the place needed to do the job. The reality is that you were there because the facility was there, not the reverse.

– Are the demo materials taken from your projects at your old job *really* yours to use? Is it your intellectual property, or does it actually belong to the person/people who were paying you the agree-upon rate to do the work?

– This is why NDA/Non-compete clauses are needed.

Now, all of this is from the perspective of a facility owner, but I truly believe that it’s a two-way street. An employer should make an effort to keep employees happy (and productive), and an employee should try to understand and meet the needs of the employer. It’s not always going to work out, but just as your former employer doesn’t have the right to attempt to prevent you from being a success, neither do you have the right to attempt to take the business away.

Kevin

[Keith Mann]

I am a business owner. For over 15 years I was a freelance director-editor. Now I own a video publishing company. The following rant applies to businessmen, not freelance artists. In my younger days I actually fell for the bull**** line that it was wrong to compete against previous employers.

Your previous employers call you scum for “stealing” clients. Yeah? Well, how come they do it all the time?

Almost every single business owner I know began their business by

[Kevin Hanley]

Geez, but no hard feelings, right?

I began my business by starting my *own* thing, not leeching off of someone else’s product. But then again, I started 15 years ago right out of college.

And yes, I have turned away clients out of ethics, but no, I haven’t ever spoken negatively with clients about former employees. Seems to me that would come across as less than professional and be counterproductive.

Kevin

[Ron Lindeboom]

[mannfilmz] “Your previous employers call you scum for “stealing” clients. Yeah? Well, how come they do it all the time? Almost every single business owner I know began their business by

[Leo Ticheli]

Thank you for that post, Ron!

I’ve found that ethics do count. We have never called on the clients of someone who brought their work to us, nor will we ever.

Over the past twenty-five or so years, we’ve “lost” some business to former employees of my company; so what? If someone else can better serve a client, they deserve the business. In most cases, we retain our clients because we do good work and we’ve developed a good relationship with them in many areas. Most clients need all of our services and enjoy working with several people on our staff, so it’s difficult for a new boutique shop to serve them as well as we can.

By the way, we don’t use non-compete agreements; I really don’t think they are enforceable in our business and I would think it’s a mistake on many levels to prevent someone from earning a living from a client who wants to hire them. What good is that? Short-term gain against your most precious commodity. Just seems petty and small to me. It surely won’t make the client in question have warm feeling for you and I doubt they would be bashful about letting the community at large know about it.

The people I know in the production business are good and ethical people; those who care only about “business at any cost,” don’t seem to stay around long. In my market we have a sense of community; there’s not a doubt in my mind that I could call on any of my competitors to borrow a critical piece of gear in an emergency, and I believe they feel the same way about us. For certain we are all very generous with business advice and technology sharing.

Am I harmed by helping a competitor? Is my competitor harmed by helping me? I think not.

Thanks again, Ron.

Best regards,

Leo
Director/Cinematographer… OK, I also have a little piece of a production company.

Southeast USA

[Tom Mcnally]

I personally would not go after an existing current client list but possibly companies that used us 2, 3 or 4 years ago and have not been heard from since. At the company where I work, some decided to go in other directions while some simply do not know what options are open to them.

Since a part of selling is establishing a positive relationship with a prospective client, striking up a new conversation with an old employer’s client from the past may not be crossing an ethical line.

At what point is a client no longer a client?

Tom McNally

[Leo Ticheli]

In the real world, things can be complicated, but I do have a pretty simple rule of thumb; if you have to think about whether or not something is ethical, it probably isn’t.

The most erroneous homily every coined is, “nice guys finish last.” In point of fact, nice guys usually finish very near the top, if not first.

Best regards,

Leo
Director/Cinematographer
Southeast USA

[Ron Lindeboom]

Personally, I tend to subscribe to “Leo’s Rule” and have never gone after a client of any company that has sent me work.

This industry is just too small a community and you will lose in the end if you develop a reputation wherein you can’t be trusted when a competitor flips you some work because a) they know your area of expertise and respect you; b) they are too busy and need your help; or, c) they are testing you with a small job to see how your ethics work before they flip you a larger job.

Like Leo says, we are an industry that is built on relationships. Those who can’t and won’t do the steps necessary to build these positive and cross-feeding relationships, are usually those individuals/companies who come and go in this industry. The old-timers in this industry know the importance of the old entertainment industry edict: “It is not what you know, it’s who you know.” It’s still true today. A variant on this might be: “It’s not what you know, it’s who knows you — and knows what they can expect.”

Those who swim with piranhas usually end up bleeding at best or become lunch for bigger piranhas.

Ron Lindeboom

[Kicki]

Firstly, I would like to thank you all for your posts and comments it was a pleasure to read them all.
I learned a lot from you, and I have a better understanding of a business side of our job now.With some of you I do agree, with some I dont`t but as we all know there is lot of angles to look at the same thing.
As few of you have said, best thing is if you leave the former employer with a smile and a handshake,but in our case it was not that way.As mannfilmz have written there are other people too.First thing that I was asked when I came to that company was – who are my former clients and how much of them can I bring to them. Next thing was a “deal” that we made that I will be paid more if I bring some new business to them. That also never happened I was payed always the same, except one time when I was payed less than I deserve because I spent to many hours and it was as he said “my opportunity to learn at his facility”.Sure I spent a lot of hours finishing a piece but who have said to me how much hours did I have to finish it? It was a first film what was done DI way in our country and he took all the credit for it, not even mentioned my colegue and me who spent 3 months doing cc and visual effects for it.
I did not agree also with a statement that we were like inventory in a facility and that people were coming for the facility itself and not for us. For God`s sake there is 5 shops with smoke and flame in our country why did they come exactly to ours?
And yes I think that as long I do not sign a contract that I give up my creative rights from the works that I`ve done they are mine to show as a proof of my creativity and talent.
So, this employer have hurt us on more on one occasion and yes he is a real shark in business,
but he owns a biggest production company in town (for 10 years and counting) and he is doing just great so the statement thay bad guys loose at the end in our case is wrong too.
Business etics up or down it is just question of honesty and peaceful sleep at night. I choose to be honest and to sleep well, and that`s what I`ll do.I am going to pursue my own path and find my own clients and I`m not going to reject any clients be it ones from former employer or someone new.

And I will do my best to do the work a twice as good as I did for him, because as I have said earlier in a subject we are on our own now!

Once again thanks to all of you, you are great source of wisdom for us that are starting now.
Kicki

[Ron Lindeboom]

[kicki] “First thing that I was asked when I came to that company was – who are my former clients and how many of them can I bring to them.

I’d chalk this up as a lesson…

A company that asks this of you is likely unscupulous and if they would ask this *of* you, then they will be just as apt to do unsavory things *to* you.

This is borne out by your next statement…

[kicki] “Next thing was a “deal” was made that I would be paid more if I brought some new business to them. That also never happened I was paid the same — except one time when I was paid less than I deserved because I spent too many hours and he said it was ‘my opportunity to learn at his facility.’ Sure I spent a lot of hours finishing a piece but … it was the first film that was done DI in our country and he took all the credit for it, not even mentioned my colleague and me who spent 3 months doing cc and visual effects for it.”

This is to be expected when dealing with people of this calibre. Chalk it up to experience and decide if you really want to do business with people like this. If you do, you can expect more of this. If you do not, then read my article “Clients & Grinders” in the library here at the Cow, as it has many points which may save you from some of the inter-personal disasters that might have come your way if you hadn’t read it. I don’t claim that it can save you from all of them but it can help in many cases.

In closing, remember that all of us get cheated sometimes. It is how we react to it that defines our own character and ofter our success or failure. Do not forget that with every successful client you develop, you are sending a message that your former employer’s words are not true and that your words are as good as gold and that your work and work ethic can be counted on.

It may not look like it when you are just starting out but you stand a great chance of developing a stronger company than your former employer — I know, I have done just that. I once got cheated out of a business by a company that had millions to draw on while we had little to fight them with. One day, our company was six-times larger than they were. We did it one client at a time and with nothing more than trying to play straight and do what we believed in.

There are always schmucks in the world, as they say here in America: “Don’t let the bastards get you down.” Be true to yourself and your own beliefs, compete against yourself and strive for doing the best you can do. Let them do what they do. The market will decide who they want to do business with. If you build good, solid inter-personal relationships and never offer an excuse for a missed deadline but do all you can to never miss a deadline and do great work — your story and effort will speak for you and you will succeed.

Oh, and don’t forget: Signs don’t sell anyone. Get out there and make some presentations and do not think that being busy is being profitable — not all jobs are good jobs and some are just “black holes” to push time and resources into.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom