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VFX shots. Grade before or after?
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We grade all the plates first then the VFX artists to comp into it. Sometimes just a tech grade to balance things out and Log C -> rec709 conversion and sometimes we do the look also.
If they can’t match then their obviously not a very good VFX artist! Once all the comping is finished then we’ll take it back into the grade for a final grade.
Works well in commercials
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Dan Moran
Colourist
Smoke & Mirrors: London
http://www.danmorancolor.com/blog -
This to me is exactly where ACES has so much potential.
Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author
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I actually prefer the FilmLight’s approach with the Baselight Editions plugins, including one for Nuke and upcoming Flame.
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It’s interesting. But then you’re stuck in a proprietary pipeline. The whole point of aces is its standardization, it can work on any platform. I’ll take a versatile open pipeline any day, you can just as easily use aces with a resolve as you can with baselight, film master, nuke, ae, etc, etc.
That to me is the future, as much flexibility and interoperability as possible. Closed platforms, and pipelines aren’t cutting it anymore.
Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author
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Why? Is FCP XML proprietary? Of coarse not. Premiere writes it as well. FilmLight utilizes the same mechanism by handing off all grades and metadata by using XML between various plugins and standalone Baselight. The same way Premiere utilizes FCP XML other manufacturers can do the same with Baselight XML. There is nothing proprietary in FilmLight’s approach.
On the other hand, Resolve is completely closed off to any third party plug in developers. And the support of the third party panel manufacturers is abysmal. It sounds pretty bad this way, if I say it, doesn’t it? -
[jake blackstone] “Why? Is FCP XML proprietary? Of coarse not.”
Not what Juan is talking about. ACES is about colorspace/overall color management; all sources are characterized so that they behave or appear to have the same colorometric behaviour. There is some discussion about it being the unifying factor for exactly this grade/VFX trade-workflow. And there is probably enough confusion, for example, about Redgamma and how it relates to 709 gamma or DCI space, which is the danger in the “freelance”/proprietary approach.
BTW, Resolve does support alpha channels now, and I do prefer to treat the fg/bg plate work as layered composites in Resolve. Even if it is a “baked” final, as long as there is a travelling matte or alpha channel, I’m good. It is difficult for most FX people to be able to grade in context, usually because they don’t have judgement monitors to work with, and the big limitation — don’t have the benefit of seeing an entire scene – they usually only have the clip with handles – so have no idea where this came from or where its going. Producers may even change their minds mid-post and change the time of day. “Oh, I know, this would work way better if it was golden hour”…. or…. “yeah, we ran out of time on set and had to shoot this noon scene at dusk. You can fix that, right?” Sure.
Its also much nicer to be able to re-grade the composite further downstream for overall vignettes, etc. which also tends to support the notion that colorists are edging towards becoming part of the overall FX discipline.
jPo
“I always pass on free advice — its never of any use to me” Oscar Wilde.
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No, I think you’re confused between XML, ACES and metadata. FilmLight approach doesn’t exclude the use of ACES. It works in CONJUNCTION with ACES. Their workflow allows pre-grade of the plate without rendering the material and maintaining metadata rich environment, while using ACES. Then composited EXR shots from NUKE can be open and graded in context with layers, previous grades and metadata still intact.
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[Joseph Owens] “It is difficult for most FX people to be able to grade in context, usually because they don’t have judgement monitors to work with, and the big limitation — don’t have the benefit of seeing an entire scene – they usually only have the clip with handles – so have no idea where this came from or where its going.”
So are you saying that you would rather grade VFX shots after the VFX are done then?
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I will grade wherever in the workflow that it makes sense.
If the VFX have not been done yet or maybe we don’t even know this is going to be an FX shot, or maybe because I’m the first stop after picture lock, I will treat images prior to handoff — trying not to compromise any greenscreens so that we’re not hooping the matte. Conversely, as long as the fg/bg plates can be separated, and we’ve agreed to exchange ProRes4444 with an alphamatte, if elements need to be treated differently (grading in contex), as if the completed composite were an original scene — that’s fine, too. Often, if I happen to also be doing the VFX work and I know where the scene is going, I’ll do both — pre-bias the source elements so that whatever is happening to it later its already in its appropriate dramatic role — its a bit like an actor staying in-character and in-costume between takes. Or maybe I can simply stick the finished composite back in the Final Cut timeline and it doesn’t go back to grade. I’ll do this with cleanups as a rule — if all you’re doing is a logo or wire removal, the grade is the grade, and if there is something about the shot that needs another tweak (“Can you take out that other truck too?”), then its not a double round trip, just re-do the composite, not *plus* the correction, just to get it back to where you wanted it in the first place. That can backfire, of course, if you compromise an area that you need to borrow for a clean-plate.
So, there is no “better”, “set”, approach.
You can really help the VFX along if you can set the look of a scene — for example, if FX is placing a model building or other object into a landscape– big consequences for how the model is lit, according to time of day. If the modeling department can get that right, we’re good to go, but otherwise, if the producer/ post supervisor wants to do some more shading, that needs to be planned (as above), and it is a huge advantage to see that layered final.
And believe me when I say that I do count generations; that dates back to doing multiple effect passes on Super HIgh Band AVR-3 quad videotape, in NTSC, composite baseband. (That means if you haven’t figured out how to do it in 3 generations, you need to start over again, because what’s left after that is mud.)
jPo
“I always pass on free advice — its never of any use to me” Oscar Wilde.
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Thanks. It makes a lot of sense.
[Joseph Owens] “That means if you haven’t figured out how to do it in 3 generations, you need to start over again, because what’s left after that is mud.”
Ha! Are you talking about the Super HIgh Band AVR-3 quad videotape days or today? 🙂
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