Varicam Compatability

[Matthew Romanis]

Hi Walter,
Thanks for you reply. The FRC tool would be a good thing if it was a PAL plugin too.

[Matthew Romanis]

Matthew Romanis- “What I am asking is how the Kona 2 card actually captures footage shot with the camera cranking at 60fps, but intended for playback at conventional frame rates thus providing a slow down. With the BM card you have to capture 3x the amount of footage than you intend on using so as the flagged frames are laid 1:1 on a 25fps timeline”

Gary Adcock-“Well you are capturing Frames Per Second,so if you record a 10 minute scene on tape it still only captures for 10 minutes not more. The hardware is only polling the flagged frames not any additional info, so there is no need to “record 3x” the amount of footage to get the content just the length of time you captured the content on tape
It works just like the Hardware FRC – it is one of the benefits of using hardware for conversions”

Walter Biscardi-“It’s the same with the Kona 2. I was helping a client capture 60p footage at 23.98 because he wants all of it to be slow mo. In order to do this on the fly via the K2, you need to capture about 3x what you would think you’d need. I’ve actually been discussing this with AJA Tech Support to see if we can come up with some sort of formula to help folks capture this way, but it’s always going to involve capturing more than you would think.”

Thanks for your replys Gary and Walter.
Could I get some clarification on this please. Please remember guys that in the PAL world we don’t have the FRC Plugin, let alone any firewire support through FCP for HD100. Gary seems to be saying that I don’t need to capture 2.4 – 3 times the amount of media required for flagged 60fps playback on a 25fps timeline, but Walter is saying I do, just like the BM card.
Gary does your way of dealing with this require rendering? Or is it still real time?
Thanks for the info on down converting.

[Matthew Romanis]

Hi Tony,
What methodology are you using to down convert within FCP. The couple of ways I have experimented with have dissapointing results.

[Gary Adcock]

[matthew Romanis] “Gary seems to be saying that I don’t need to capture 2.4 – 3 times the amount of media required for flagged 60fps playback on a 25fps timeline, but Walter is saying I do, just like the BM card. Gary does your way of dealing with this require rendering? Or is it still real time?Thanks for the info on down converting.”

Matthew
Think about it differently, you are not capturing frames you are capturing time. The Varicam is laying your 25FPS content down at 720p25|60 – So no matter what your frame rate is the 720p spec is to ALWAYS record 60fps (because there is no 720p|50 native setting)

Example: at the last Varicamp I recorded a direct stream of video at 10fps for 90 minute when I stopped the capture FCP took about 2 minutes to catch up (it was a capturing now with TC coming in over serial) but the captured footage is only about 9 minutes in length (at 23.98 in my world)
No rendering – just drop into the 720p timeline and it works.

(from Amsterdam for IBC because I get PAL)

From IBC

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL

[Matthew Romanis]

Hi Gary,
Your’e talking about shooting at lower frame rates than what you intend playing back with, yes? What about higher frame rates? The reason I’m being a little pedantic about this is that if the Kona 2 card can deal with the higher frame rates better than the the BM card, then getting one is a certainty. Like I was saying in previous threads, the only way of dealing with the 60fps shooting intended for replay at 25fps is cumbersome within the BM card when the camera tape is shot beyond 12 – 13 minute mark . It makes dubbing into an FRC and then out to tape, then capturing into FCP seem quick!!
The aplication I’m talking about here is for sports coverage where the slow motion capabilities of the Varicam make it a great production tool. The methodology of dealing with the Kona 2 card in post, when quick turn around is required, is what I’m interested in.
Curently with the BM card you have to capture almost 3 times the amount of media required off tape to attain a clip in slow motion. I understand the process of why the BM card needs to do this, is the Kona 2 card different?

[Walter Biscardi]

[matthew Romanis] “Gary seems to be saying that I don’t need to capture 2.4 – 3 times the amount of media required for flagged 60fps playback on a 25fps timeline, but Walter is saying I do, just like the BM card.”

You need to let the tape roll for 3x times as long as you think you need, but you’re still going to record the actual amount of tape you’re looking for.

Back to my earlier example (and I know this is confusing as heck, it’s confuses me too) if I have 60fps material and I want to record 20 seconds of it in slo-mo at 23.98, then I will make the actual Capture about 60 seconds long. After the footage is captured, I will actually have about a 20 second clip of slo mo material.

Confusing as all get-out and I’m going to see if there’s any way we can work out a formula or tool to make this easier. May not be possible though.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Now in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now editing “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Walter Biscardi]

[matthew Romanis] “Curently with the BM card you have to capture almost 3 times the amount of media required off tape to attain a clip in slow motion. I understand the process of why the BM card needs to do this, is the Kona 2 card different?”

No, and you’ll see in my post below that it’s most likely the same scenario as the BM card.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Now in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now editing “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Gary Adcock]

[Walter Biscardi] ”
[matthew Romanis] “Gary seems to be saying that I don’t need to capture 2.4 – 3 times the amount of media required for flagged 60fps playback on a 25fps timeline, but Walter is saying I do, just like the BM card.”You need to let the tape roll for 3x times as long as you think you need, but you’re still going to record the actual amount of tape you’re looking for.”

Matthew you are not capturing frames at this point, you record time. I shoot minutes and seconds in video I never count frames.

You have to record the length of time of the tape, as it was originally shot. If you recorded 20 minutes of footage at 60FPS you still need to record 20 minutes of TAPE to get to the 2.5x faster playback. In this scenario the file would be 150 minutes of footage at 24p (NOT 25fps)
All off speed (over and undercranked) varicam footage is is referenced on the tape at 720|24p (I know you are working in PAL the camera is not).

So yes, I guess that in your point of view you will have to record more time (2.5 -3x) than you need, It is the difference in the way we look at the workflow. With off speed footage (fast or slow) I never shoot or capture just what I need, I make sure that I have handles and alts available.

From IBC

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL

[Tony]

Take dvcpro HD sequence and paste into into a standard def 525i 8 bit 23.98 uncompressed sequence.

I am using the BM 8 bit 2vuy codec. FCP does the rescaling. I let the Kona and Kona 2 do the 3:2 pulldown for output to tape.

Tony Salgado

[Gary Adcock]

Matthew

I realized something,
You do understand that the Varicam always records 60 fps no matter what the frame rate — thats why you think that you are recording 2.5x the amount of material that you recorded you are counting frames not time.

So if I need 10 seconds of content running at 2x speed, yes I do need to capture 2x more time, that is just the math. If I am slowing it down I only need 1/2 as much.

I guess that I took for granted that this was understood that in this process that you really trying to compress time, not frames per second. So if it goes twice as fast, you need twice as much of it

gary

(thanks walter)

From IBC

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL