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Using Empty Compound Clips as a FCP 7 Sequence – No Need For Projects
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Exactly!
At least this is the way I’m going to be working until I discover otherwise!
Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
So far, I’ve been using the events on a per project basis, since upon import, I can create a new Event and tell FCPX where to save it (this way I can split up stuff over a few drives).
Have to say, that I’m really digging the compound clips.
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FCP Guru
http://www.fcpguru.com -
[Matthew Celia] “Have to say, that I’m really digging the compound clips.”
Yeah, I have to say the best plan seems to be to try and avoid being guided by what Apple tell you is the right way to work and find the strategies that make the most sense for your particular workflow whatever it might be. There are a lot of seriously daft suggestions about workflows in the manual and the Events business tops the list for me.
Very pleased to have found a working method that makes sense to me, thanks to Tony.
Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
It’s actually a really nice workflow and gives you the multiple timeline functionality you may be craving coming from FCP 7.
The one caveat is that it’s a one way trip. In other words once you drag a Compound Clip you’ve created in the Event Browser into a Project, that becomes a specific instance of the Compound Clip and no longer updates back to the original. This of course has its benefits in that you’ll be able to have a ‘master copy’ for your compound clip in the Event Browser and then do whatever you want with the instance on a Project timeline. Just remember the version you put into the Project timeline is it’s own thing and no longer relates or updates back to the original in your Event Browser.
Noah
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[Noah Kadner] “The one caveat is that it’s a one way trip.”
But if you open the Compound clip to the Timeline (Clip/Open in Timeline) it does seem to behave like a good old-fashioned FCP7 sequence would and does update the original.
I can see that of course it wouldn’t happen this way if you edited the Compound clip into another Project which might be what you are saying.
Or have I got this completely wrong?
Thanks.
Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
First off, thanks so much everyone for chiming in! I’ll try and answer a few of the questions brought up below:
[Simon Ubsdell] “Do you reckon this could be a template structure that can be adapted for new Events?”
Didn’t even think about that yet but yah. You could have a “MASTER TEMPLATE” Event that you would Duplicate at the the beginning of each job and go from there. Good thought. Thanks.
[Matt Callac] “For me it makes more sense to have an Event=FCP project.”
This is exactly what I meant when I said one Event for each Job. Sorry for the confusion as I should have said, like you, treat each Event as a FCP 7 Project.
[Simon Ubsdell] “I reckon that by and large we would want to be creating new Events based on where we want particular jobs to be stored, do you think? I doubt that we’d generally want to have a plurality of Events for one job.”
This goes back to the Event=FCP 7 Project idea. Once Apple lets us manually place the Events folders where we want it will make it simpler. Right now a typical folder structure for me in the Finder would be (though simplified for illustration purposes):
DRIVE > CLIENT NAME > PROJECT NAME (ex. Summer Commercial Series) > FCP PROJECTS > Each Individual FCP Project for the Summer Commercial Series (ex. ComA.fcp, ComB.fcp, ComC.fcp)
Actually, let me take a screengrab to make it clearer……… and I’m back, thanks to magic of technology. Here it is:
So once we can put Event Folders where we want, I’ll probably just store them in the FCP Projects Folder.
As for the plurality of Events for one job, I personally like to keep all versions of a particular commercial in one FCP Project so if I stick with the Event=FCP 7 Project than I only have one Event to worry about.
Also, it is finally easy to grab things from past Projects(Events) since every Event on a drive is now readily available in FCP X, searchable and all. So nice.
[Simon Ubsdell] “One question about what you’ve done here – why have you made folders to put your Keyword Collections in? Isn’t this just duplicating the same thing? Surely a Keyword Collection is a “folder” in most practical senses?”
I made Folders to put the Keywords in so I can easily collapse a group of Keywords to hide them. Yes, Keywords are folders but they are only one level deep (you can’t put a Keyword in a Keyword). Guess it would be nice to turn a Keyword into a Folder, too, so that anything you put in that folder would get whatever Keyword was associated with that folder. But for now this works.
[Noah Kadner] “The one caveat is that it’s a one way trip. In other words once you drag a Compound Clip you’ve created in the Event Browser into a Project, that becomes a specific instance of the Compound Clip and no longer updates back to the original.”
I don’t see this as an issue as it’s just how Sequences and Nest have always worked in FCP 7. Once you drag a Nest into a project it becomes its own thing and I’m fine with that though I’m hoping for some updates to the workflow which I’ll explain in a sec.
But if you just double clip the Compound Clip in the Event Browser, it opens up and acts just like a FCP 7 sequence, updating and all.
Now back to Nests… I would like to finally have an option to make a global Nest, one that I could have in many timelines, change only one instance of it, and it updates all the instances of it.
I also would like to have a shortcut to make a Compound Clip that you made in the timeline a Compound Clip that you could store in an Event. Yes, I can create an Empty Compound Clip and copy the clips I want into it, just seems like an extra step.
tony
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Using Compound Clips as replacement for Sequences was my approach from the very beginning. Don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
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So still trying to find flaws in this approach and not sure if this counts as one.
When you create a Project and add clips from more than one Event in the Project Properties Tab there is a setting called “Reference Events”. I have yet to find an equivalent for Compound Clips. You can view a list of the clips in the Compound Clips Properties tab but you can’t seem to “Modify Event References” like you can with a FCP X Project.
So I moved Events around to different drives, trying to get the Compound Clip to lose reference to the various clips but haven’t gotten it to break yet. So what it seems like with Compound Clips is you may lose the ability to “reorder Events if duplicates are in Events” in order for FCP X to use a certain duplicate and not the first one it finds on its own. Does this make since to anyone?
tony
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You would lose the ability move a sequence from one machine to another, right?
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I thought about this too. Sorry if the comments below are a bit long but I’m just trying to wrap my head around all this and could use some help. Here are the options I have so far (some of these are pushing it but I like to think of all options before I choose one):
– You could make a FCP X Project just for this reason and copy your Compound Clip into it and then share the Project folder, but that would defeat the purpose of not using Projects in the first place. Also, to reduce the Project size you could not copy the Render Files folder.
– You could copy the Events Folder from one machine to the other and you’d be set. One folder to copy, instead of two (if you copied your Event and Project folders) but unless you are referencing clips in your Event, that file would be huge. And haven’t had a chance to test it when the media it references is on a different drive than the first computer. Since you can’t manually reconnect clips are you out of luck?
– You could create a new Event and copy the Compound Clip into it and just share that new Event. Now, when you do this the only option I have found is to actually copy ALL the original media referenced in that Compound Clip whether you chose to just have FCP X reference your original media to begin with (not copy the original files into the Original Media folder of the Event folder but leave them in a separate location) or not. There is no way to just move the Compound Clip into a new Event and just reference the original Event it came from. If someone has figured this out let me know. I know you can create a new Compound Clip in the new Event and copy and paste of the contents of the original Compound Clip but that is too many steps for something so simple. You can however delete those duplicate files when they finish copying over since you can tell FCP X to just reference the original Event once you open up FCP X again. This logic baffles me and could have easily been remedied with a simple option to reference media when I initially copied the Compound Clip into the new event. Point being, something this simple shouldn’t work one way and not another. One plus… this seems like an easy way to consolidate a Compound Clip (AKA: Sequence, AKA: Mini FCP X Project) for backup.
So it seems that using Projects is the easiest way to share but I’m curious how well the files reconnect on different systems. But I still think Projects are redundant as they are implemented now and could easily be merged into Events since they are practically there already with Compound Clips.
This is where I can definitely tell the FCP X team could not and did not settle on a unified interface. There are some great ideas in here… they just need to decide which route to take cause right now there isn’t a clear one (just read the manual and you’ll see even they have a hard time explaining some things).
Once people start testing this in a multi-system environment, we’ll start to find the best way to do this. The sharing projects easily is a big question right now. Since there is no way, yet, that we can manually reconnect clips, does that mean every system has to have the correct Events folder, up to date, in order to open a Project? Example: Editor 02 works on a Project and adds a graphic that Editor 01 doesn’t have yet. Editor 02 gives Editor 01 their Project. Editor 01 opens the Project and tells it to reference his Event. Since Editor 01 does not yet have the new graphic it is offline. Editor 01 then adds the new graphic to his Event. What Happens now? Does the graphic automatically reconnect cause it’s the same name and size or does Editor 01 have to MANUALLY insert the graphic into the project every place it was used. If we could manually reconnect clips this would be a moot point. Haven’t tested this scenario yet.
Here are some related issues I’ve run into when testing all this:
– You can not just copy an Event, change it’s name, and now have two different Events. FCP X will only open one since I guess it sees it as a duplicate Event (which it is). It also seems to “prefer” the Events on your MAC HD which means it will chose that one over one on an external and there doesn’t seem to be a way to stop it from doing this.
– Once an Event or Project looses its connection to the media there is no way to manually fix it. It’s either find the original Event drive or go hit your head against a wall ’til you pass out.
Why do I see this discussion important… because I don’t need unnecessary redundancy in a pro app and need a decent starting workflow for a multi-system environment. Here is where I stand on Projects and Compound Clips (AKA: Mini Projects):
Compound Clips:
Pros
– Live in an Event so only one Main folder to deal with
– Can easily search and organize them thanks to Keywords
– Act just like a Project except for the two consCons
– Not easy to share
– Can’t duplicate an Event Folder and rename it to make a copy like you can with ProjectsFCP X Projects
Pros
– Relatively easy to share
– Don’t need Event to open so you can see past ProjectsCons
– Separate folder from Events
– Every Project is only one timeline (FCP 7 Sequence) therefore you easily have the potential for thousands of these guys pretty fast in a mulit-system workflow.
– Every Project that has ever been created on the drive where the Final Cut Projects folder lives is right there, easily adding clutter if the other Editors didn’t organize them well with folders.
– Can’t globally search them all (which seems like a huge over-site to me with all the great organization Events have now). If someone knows how to search Projects let me know
– Can’t use the new Keywords feature with them though you can add Notes to themI know much of those cons have been discussed on various threads but putting them here for easy reference to my thoughts.
And with all these great new ways to organize, I do not like the fact that you can just grab an asset from the Finder and drop it into any timeline without some sort of dialog box coming up saying, “Hey there buddy… You’ve done such a great job organizing so where do ya want to store this (copy the file or reference it) and what Keywords do you want to add to this?” Right now it acts just like FCP 7… no dialog box. So you have to search for the most recent footage and do it then, which as we know, most people won’t, therefore that clip will never be easily searchable.
Once again, sorry for the long post but this info is important to my potential workflow. And I want to be clear that I am not mad in the slightest, just frustrated as I try and work stuff out, as I really believe the potential for an “amazing” new NLE is buried deep somewhere in this crevasse called FCP X
Right now, to have some sort of organization, I will create a folder with the EXACT same name as the Event for which it pertains to (or mostly pertains to if I reference more than one Event) and just make folders in there to organize the Projects (Sequences).
I’m starting to see for me that the problem with Events for pros, the way they are set-up now, is that they were made with only RAW FOOTAGE in mind (just like in iMovie), meaning these issues arise because Graphics, Music, Sequences etc. (anything besides RAW FOOTAGE) don’t easily (logically) fit into this system when the Projects (Sequences) are separated from them.
Still trying to find someone explain to me why having to worry about TWO master folders for each Job (Event and Projects) is the best route. Maybe it is and I’m just blind to it right now.
tony
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