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Tracks
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “I agree the source / record analogy in FCP and other NLEs comes from broadcast. I am looking at the timeline.
I am talking specifically about the approach to editing – the idea that you cut an A-roll and “cut away” to B-roll. This approach seems built-in to the Primary Storyline model (with attached clips).
“I think apple used the useful part of that method (connected clips essentially ARE cutaways, aren’t they?) but just extended it so that instead of it being fixed single use thing – it became a very flexible thing.
That’s the point of the new Auditions idea. The cutaway can be a “container” for choices, if you so choose.
Different, but not just different to be different, different to add value.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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Bill,
Without opening the question of how they have added to it, my point was that the A/B roll model is the fundamental model they’ve chosen – it informs the way they approached the timeline.
I think you’re in agreement here.
Franz.
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I too am woefully ignorant of the traditions of film, but as I recall, film was actually the first “non linear” editing tradition wasn’t it?
You came back with your field footage from developing. You cut it into scenes, hung it on the wire as celluloid strips. Then the editor could pick and choose from any of them, in any order, to assemble the cut. The actual editing was essentially done as a “non-linear” assembly.
It was only when videotape came along that the images were all baked onto a linear “time stripe” and you had to shuttle back and forth and mark electronic ins and outs to do your “assemble edit” – which forced the workflow to be LINEAR, just as the videotape was.
Every primary source was essentially ALWAYS stuck in linear time on tape, unlike the movie process.
That’s how I kinda recall it, anyway.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “Without opening the question of how they have added to it, my point was that the A/B roll model is the fundamental model they’ve chosen – it informs the way they approached the timeline.
“I’d agree with that
“My Name is Steve and I’m an FCPX user”
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A preliminary search yielded only this:
https://www.theindiefilmblog.com/history/the-history-of-the-term-b-roll.html
… hardly authoritative (no dates or references) but it reflects my own impression. Outside of video, I’d only ever heard “B-roll” when conforming 16mm neg.
Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “My experience with film editing is very limited, but this against everything I know about it, where reels are compiled by Scene or Slate (for scripted material) or Scene and Location (for unscripted material).”
Well, I was being a little over-simplistic when talking about it and also relaying it to my film (I mean celluloid) cutting experience on Moviola flatbeds.
The basic concept comes from where a film is compiled on two reels. The reels are matched up and the first shot of the film is on reel A and the second shot of the film is on reel B and you go back and forth. In between shots, on both reels leader is cut in to keep the two reels at the exact same length. This method was necessary in order to do things like dissolves.
Broll means a different these days but in general film production still tends to put scenes together in a master shot/cutaway fashion which to me matches well with the primary story/connected clip paradigm.
Andy
https://www.timesavertutorials.com
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Andy,
Yes, this is necessary for neg conforming in 16mm as outlined above. (Though I can’t imagine ever putting your negative through a moviola …)
The meaning was fundamentally different in the video edit suite (though perhaps it came from the film terminology? This we may never know …)
In the video suite “A” roll and “B” roll designate functions of footage – it’s an ideological designation, and reflects ideas about the importance of the footage.
Contrast this to the purely technical designation needed for neg conforming.
It is the video paradigm (above) that has been adopted in the “Primary Storyline” model of FCPX and this was the point of my post.
Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “I can’t imagine ever putting your negative through a moviola”
In news, right up through the end of the 70’s, negative was often cut and screened live on-air via a “film chain,” which was like a telecine, but without video tape. I worked for the CBS affiliate in Boston, and amazingly that’s how it was still being done as late as 1978. The first portable video cameras were only just making it into the broadcast business at the network level. We’re come a long way in the last 30-plus years.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
https://www.drwfilms.comDon’t miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing “The Whale” to the Big Screen:
https://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfitandSuzanneChisholm/1POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.
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[tony west] “I’m not locking and unlocking tracks because there are no tracks. I’m just dropping stuff down the way I want without having it effect other clips.”
While I don’t mean to, in any way, disparage your liking or experience, I have to point out, “the way you want” is a contradiction in terms regarding this timeline.
One thing for sure here, the language we use for other NLE’s does not translate to this “NLE”
The “way I want” to place audio and video conforms to how FCX wants. And I have to create slugs and roles and compound clips if I even want to attempt to do “what I want”…I want to put something here – I can’t, I want to layer this way, I can’t. I want to import this video, I can’t unless I transcode to fit the locked AR. Very simple procedures any where else. The relationship of control and the editor is wiped away and the FCXers will argue that’s the way it’s supposed to function…but for some, that’s just puzzling. It doesn’t *have to* function this way…
You have an appreciation for it I will never get, you bring the one thing you can’t find in any other NLE as a “better way”. Which was the gist of my query. Please don’t interpret any of this as a criticism. You like it. I think it blows lol. What I have to say almost matters…
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[David Roth Weiss] In news, right up through the end of the 70’s, negative was often cut and screened live on-air via a “film chain,”…
For some reason I always assumed film chain was print – though I suppose they had a pos/neg switch? It certainly makes sense to bypass the lab time and go direct from neg.
Were you hot splicing A/B rolls or tape splicing single rolls of neg?
I would assume, being in a broadcast environment, that “B roll” took on the broadcast meaning that I’ve outlined?
Franz.
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