Tiger MetaLAN with FCP systems

[John Mcclary]

Christen this solution zSAN and say that this day, the 27th of May, be called “Z day”.

A day of celebration for small shops everywhere. Thank you to Bob, Tiger Technologies, Small Tree, and to all involved.

John McClary
“zSAN – I want to believe”

“The future you can afford”

[Peter Brauner]

One should also know that the server runs on both Mac and Windows. The clients may be osx, windows and/or linux and MetaLAN will convert the file system in realtime for the respective platform and there for get SAN performance with for example a windows server and osx clients. Too bad though that the server can´t be run on linux.

Having a e-mail conversation with David Pollock right now and I asked him a few questions about server platform. I have built a very, VERY lowcost windows XP Dell server and a rocketraid driven redundant storage. This is my intention to use as a server with MetaLan. Intel dual port NIC for around $200 (also available as quad port for $420). HP Switches with full 802.3ad (link aggregation) support. I post the Q&A I having with David:

Me: I think I got it right that I can run the server from Windows XP Pro and it does not have to be a server os, correct?
David: Correct, does not need a server OS.
Me: Will there be any performance issues having the server on Windows instead of Mac OSX?
David: There should be virtually no difference between the two.
Me: Last question and maybe a little harder to answer, if I run the MetaLAN Server on a Windows OS, can the MetaLAN be used as a SAN for Final Cut Server or do I need the Mac OSX version of MetaLAN Server for that?
David: Good question.  As far as we know, this should work as Final Cut Server does not seem too picky on the file system per say.  However, Final Cut Server must run on a Mac Leopard Server OS (Final Cut Server clients do not need Server OS). 

cheers!

Peter Brauner
VFX Artist
Effektfabriken
http://www.effektfabriken.se

[Tim Kentley]

guys – there is a BIG question here you are not considering that MAY be the revolution:
in a nutshell – can you do this with 10GBe? then its not just SD. Its HD. For everyone. On the CHEAP.
In fact, at 1,250MB/s on 10GBe, its 4K for everyone…..

SUGGESTED SYSTEM
1 to 7xHDpro rackmount into Xserve.
dual port 10GB/e out of XSERVE.
1 port goes direct to MacPro for HD/2K/4K with data quota control.
1 port goes to 48port gigabit switch with dual 10GB/e expansion ports. Jumbo frames, bonded gigabit.
metaLAN runs the connects. for the rest of the studio/renderfarm.

now I know you can do this with afp, BUT the catch is, AFP has a limit of 180MB/s.
so the REAL question is, whats the data limit on metaLAN?
Its hardware agnostic, so the only thing to do is hook in 7 HDpros at 2GB/s and give the system a crank – any takers???

Tim / XYZ Studios

[Bob Zelin]

You can do the exact system that I described with 10Gig Ethernet, and yes, there is a 180mb/sec bandwidth limitation, but yes, you will probably get “regular” uncompressed HD to work this way. Small Tree is the leading 10 Gig Ethernet card manufacturer, and they are coming out with a new “cheap” 10 Gig switch for $7500 that is 24 port. So it’s a great deal, but it’s still not cheap. Many people feel that $1950 is too expensive for a managed Gig E switch to do the normal stuff, and many people feel that simply buying a dedicated MAC at all is STILL to expensive for SAN.

This is in great contrast to the expensive Apple XSAN or AVID Unity systems that cost A LOT OF MONEY. There are STILL people that think that SAN systems mean buying an Apple XServe RAID, and simply plugging in all the MACs to it. IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY.

So yes, 10GigE will give you dramatically more bandwidth. And so will AoE (ATA over Ethernet) as is being discussed by Robin Frost from 2Frost, who has even greater bandwidths.

The bottom line is –
#1 – you do NOT need Apple XSAN to have a working system. Aside from MetaLAN, solutions from FibreJet, EditShare and Facilis prove this every day
#2 – for MOST people, every solution mentioned is STILL to expensive and still too complex. I cannot tell you how many people come to me and say “why cant we just get a FW800 drive and plug both computers into the 2 FW800 ports on the drive. Isn’t this shared storage ?
The first guy to figure this out will be rich.

There is no REVOLUTION until it’s cheap – and cheap means CHEAP.
In the mean time MetaLAN is pretty damn low, but it still requires a dedicated MAC and drive storage.

Bob Zelin

[Eyad Hamam]

Hi,

I need to set up a shared storage system in the next few months for some reality TV type shows, shot mostly on DV, HDV, DVCproHD and occasionally HD captured as pro-res.
Would a system like this, with a 4 imacs attached, work for completing the rough cuts?

and if an extra editor occasionally came in with a laptop, could they just plug in an extra ethernet cable and start editing?

Thnx.

[Bob Zelin]

let me make one thing perfectly clear about this system. This is not a “box” that you go out and buy, and plug in your MAC’s and all of a sudden, you have shared storage. This is a system that needs to be BUILT by a QUALIFIED dealer, or IT computer person. You will not be able to do this by yourself, and you will not be able to figure it out by simply asking questions like this on Creative Cow. And no, there is no “easy setup” guide.

To answer your question – I have no idea if iMacs would work, but they probably would, if they are used as “edit stations” only, with NO DRIVES, and no capture cards. You still need the MAC Pro as the server and a big fast expensive disk drive, (and the switch, and software).

No one is going to just “come in and plug in their laptop” without you paying for a licensed copy of MetaLAN client software, and have someone configure the “server” to “add” this new user.

I guess I will repeat over and over – this ain’t no “plug and play” system, and neither is any SAN on the market. Anyone that tells you this is deceiving you (to my knowlege).

bob Zelin

[Tim Kentley]

Hi Bob,

thanks for that and agree, but could you clarify – we know the 180MB/s limit on 10GBe is for AFP (and this may change soon) – but would it be for metaLAN/SAN? ie: could you get 400MB/s or more with metaLAN, allowing 444 HD/2k over a 10GB/e fabric. I emailed their support, and they said it should be as fast as the network can do hardware wise…. but i would love to know if anyone has PHYSICALLY tested it…

because if it does, the ADVANTAGE is that the ethernet fabric allows fast data across all machines, which is a huge advantage over just those on a FC fabric. not every machine will need HD streaming, but having all the offline, graphics stations accessing data at high rates, is very attractive for a studio environment – as apposed to shoving a expensive FC card in every box, and some madly expensive FC switch…

and just a comment on this line:
No one is going to just “come in and plug in their laptop” without you paying for a licensed copy of MetaLAN client software, and have someone configure the “server” to “add” this new user.

I believe you can still have afp running, allowing the odd macbook (because no one in post houses uses windows lappys 🙂 to connect and transfer data, of course without the speed but also without the client software. this is a small, but important feature for real world use, as you always have directors/clients coming in and letting them share data easily like this removes a pain in the butt of usb sticks and burning dvd’s etc…

tim

[Eyad Hamam]

Actually, i read about a product called vStor, and their tech support said one could do what I suggested with their system. BAsically plug and play with minimal hassle.

However, regardiing the metalan, I understand that the system you described needs a dedicated Macpro and some serious tech guy to set it up, but once it’s up and running I assumed anyone could connect an ethernet cable and be ready to work. Guess id doesn’t work that way since it needs the software install.

Another question though. Why would an iMac be slower? My idea was (bear with me please) to connect an imac via ethernet, matrox mxo and a dvi monitor for semi-broadcast monitoring. I’ve used an imac before, and provided you don’t overtax it with heavy effects and 20 layers of video, it works fine for DV and HDV, and even prores and SD uncompressed are fine for small timelines. So, in your opinion, is the imac slower because it has a slower architecture (obviously it won’t come close to a mac pro) or because the ethernet connection on an imac won’t give the same performance as that on a Macpro?

thnx

[Bob Zelin]

I will reply below, but lets make one thing clear – I AM NO IT EXPERT, and I may be stating wrong information. I started this thread because I found a way to do a cheap easy SAN, and you are asking questions that I may not have accurate answers to.

You write –
thanks for that and agree, but could you clarify – we know the 180MB/s limit on 10GBe is for AFP (and this may change soon) – but would it be for metaLAN/SAN? ie: could you get 400MB/s or more with metaLAN, allowing 444 HD/2k over a 10GB/e fabric. I emailed their support, and they said it should be as fast as the network can do hardware wise…. but i would love to know if anyone has PHYSICALLY tested it…

REPLY – Tiger Tech does not make the network. The network, and it’s speed is based on your ethernet cards, and ethernet switch. Based on information from Small Tree, 180mb/sec is the limit even with 10Gig cards and switch. This may be different with other protocols (like AoE which I am discussing RIGHT NOW on the SANetworks forum with Robin Frost of 2degreesfrost), but you aint’ getting this performance with standard ethernet protocol on a MAC with even 10Gig. 180mb/sec it is. But this is enought to do uncompressed HD (and I can’t answer how many streams, so don’t make stuff up that I didnt’ say).

because if it does, the ADVANTAGE is that the ethernet fabric allows fast data across all machines, which is a huge advantage over just those on a FC fabric. not every machine will need HD streaming, but having all the offline, graphics stations accessing data at high rates, is very attractive for a studio environment – as apposed to shoving a expensive FC card in every box, and some madly expensive FC switch…

REPLY – this is your ASSUMPTION. I cannot stress that I am a beginner at this, but I see that with a simple ethernet network, using link aggrigation on the “server” to get a 4 Gig pipe (like Fibre channel), I can successfully run several MAC’s running FCP and graphics applications at DVCProHD, ProRes422 and uncompressed STANDARD DEF 8 bit with no issues. This is all I have done, this is all I have tested. I will not assume ANYTHING that I have not tested. You must understand that the most requested thing recently is for a cheap shared storage system for 2 guys with 2 FCP systems, that just want to share some files. I am not involved with hi end multi user facilities that are doing uncompressed HD and 4:4:4 work.
You can speculate all you want, but I am currently unaware of any system – even AVID Unity or full Apple XSAN systems that are doing what you are talking about. And you know what – it’s not my market. I don’t have any clients that are doing 4:4:4 in 4 edit rooms with a SRW-5500, so I will not be the guy testing this.

Bob Zelin (a true novice in SAN systems, who knows enough to know not to assume anything).

[Bob Zelin]

This is my opinion, and let me repeat, this is my opinion, and not based on any fact or experience.

VStor from Apace Systems seems like a fantastic turnkey system. Apace is very aggresive with pre sales info, and seems like they will give great after sale support in helping you get it setup. They have a “starter system” for $8000. Although I have never tested it, I would bet you money, that you dont’ take it out of the box, plug in your ethernet cables, turn it on, and “voila !”, shared storage. But with that said, I am sure that Apace Systems will be there with you every step of the way. This is apparantly what happened with Chris Blair on the SANNetworks Cow forum, who had a great VStor experience. I can say nothing but positive things about Apace Systems from what I know so far.

As for an iMAC as a workstation, sure, it should work just fine if you dont’ treat it like a MAC Pro tower, and dont’ expect perforance from it. Same with a laptop like a MAC Book Pro. If it’s got a dedicated ethernet port, and you have something else to capture with, it will probably work just fine. But don’t take my word for it, as I never tried it.

Bob Zelin