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The Big Picture
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[R. Hewitt] “While I would love to see Adobe dominate, they will never topple Avid.
Avid has a massive user base including nearly all the major broadcasters world-wide (and more are signing up), major film makers and their image processing companies, colleges (get the students early) and many thousands of TV news companies… the list goes on.
Adobe lost the chance to dominate a long time ago by aiming for the professional market that Avid had already won. Wrong market. They should have put their investment into the growing semi-pro/home market.
I’m not saying that PPro isn’t up to full professional use but rather there are serious workflow issues with the application and the audio handling is done in a way that no full time professional would ever use.
As for Avid systems being: top-heavy expensive infrastructure built on an antique foundation. That’s very far from the truth as any professional using the application will tell you. They’re not cheap admitedly but no decent, reliable software is.”
…while I respect Avid’s products and the work they did to establish the entire NLE concept, I’m not sure I agree with your vision of the future.
I remember not so many NABs ago when their was a lot of concern that Avid’s time might be running out (and I have only attended NAB with exhibitors, not as a general attendee, so this was industry people talking…not that that is anything earth-shattering. but you have to admit that the stretch before the last couple of product introductions such as Nitris, Adrenaline and Mojo was kind of a more-of-the-same time for Avid, while everyone else was coming gunning for them).
My anecdotal experience sees FCP much more popular with schools than Avid.
I don’t quite see how Adobe *didn’t* go after the professional/prosumer market with Premiere…it was OEM’d with everything under the sun, at one point either with Premiere 6 or 6.5, there were more units sold of Premiere than every other NLE, hardware or software, combined I was told (by a source I would trust on the subject.)
PPro’s lack of dual mono audio is definitely a problem, but there are a few of us with some credentials who find the program able to meet our needs… 🙂 The audio handling in PPro overall is actually excellent. Does Avid allow you to edit audio on a video timeline, but to slide it in increments of an audio sample? (I’m asking…I don’t know.) At the time of PPro’s release, I don’t think it was by the reaction of professionals I was demoing for in those days…
As far as Avid being antiquated…well, its editing and media management tools are second to none…but historically Avid’s inability to import or export a wide variation of filetypes has been an issue to those outside the braodcast arena where output back to tape was the main workflow. They have also had challenges adapting to pricing pressure as their first attempts at lower end systems resulted in products that Avid editors didn’t even like and the Avid toolset that should have made the systems a shoe-in with the mid-range professional was severely truncated to preserve the value proposition for the higher-end customer.
Avid has its traditional advantages intact, but with the demands on the professional non-broadcast editor changing, causing them to weigh the “peripheral” non-editing core features more heavily in purchase decisions, combining with the broadcast market representing a smaller part of the total pie with each passing year (also broadcasters being the slowest to upgrade physical plant…), Avid doesn’t really have the market dominance that it once had, and while they have their sweet spots where they still own the landscape, they will have to get out some big guns to keep the invaders back…
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
[Dave Friend] “[R. Hewitt] “Once Apple moves over to the Intel platform, FCP will be in for a very big suprise from Avid.”
I’m not sure what you are saying with this comment. Please expand. Thanks”
I assume he means that somehow FCP editors will prefer to move to Avid once Macs run on Intel…I’m not sure why as such a large part of FCP users have left Avid for various reasons…maybe Avid will suddenly restructure its pricing?
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
[Tim Kolb] “there were more units sold of Premiere than every other NLE”
Two things:
it’s rather difficult to consider it a “sale” if it’s being given away for free with a hardware board. Second, you also need to qualify that this was at a time when almost all professional NLE software was at least 10k-50k+ just to start, and Premiere could be had for $300-500.00 – when it was actually being purchased.[Tim Kolb] “Does Avid allow you to edit audio on a video timeline”
Yes[Tim Kolb] “but to slide it in increments of an audio sample?”
Unless something has changed, no. However this can be done in FCP and I believe in Edition & Vegas.[Tim Kolb] “As far as Avid being antiquated…well, its editing and media management tools are second to none”
Hyperbole. I think you’d get quite an argument about Avid’s editorial workflow strengths at a number of different COW forums. It certainly has some powerful and mature features, but it’s also hobbled by a very antiquated design – it’s no longer “second to none” by a long shot. As for media management, yes, Avid’s consolidate feature is the most mature in any NLE. However for actually managing clips, it’s a bear and totally antiquated, with discreet edit and others (Lightworks would be another) far more flexible.[Tim Kolb] “Avid has its traditional advantages intact”
This is about the least true thing one can say at this point:https://www.nmr.com/page.php?page=1000650&set=1
The above link about the BBC is just indicative of the growing number of broadcast networks moving away from Avid. Showtime and Playboy are now totally FCP, as are an expanding number of production companies in Los Angeles (i.e. Bunim-Murray’s Real World is totally FCP, as are most (not all) of the major trailer houses). I’m not touting FCP here, only pointing out that Avid’s strength is diminishing and will continue to diminish. If Adobe steps up to the plate to actually enhance PPro as a mature NLE (sorry, it’s simply not there yet), then its powerful integration with Axio will only further accelerate Avid’s decline.
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[Les Kaye] “[Tim Kolb] “there were more units sold of Premiere than every other NLE”
Two things:
it’s rather difficult to consider it a “sale” if it’s being given away for free with a hardware board. Second, you also need to qualify that this was at a time when almost all professional NLE software was at least 10k-50k+ just to start, and Premiere could be had for $300-500.00 – when it was actually being purchased.This was sort of my point. I was responding to the implication that Premiere was wasting time foing after the “broadcast market” when they should have been pursuing the “prosumer”…my point is that you can hardly post these sorts of unit numbers without aggressively going after the middle to lower level user…
[Tim Kolb] “Does Avid allow you to edit audio on a video timeline”
Yes[Tim Kolb] “but to slide it in increments of an audio sample?”
Unless something has changed, no. However this can be done in FCP and I believe in Edition & Vegas.These two are one question of mine. I was making the point that there are a few features on other systems that trump the Avid toolset.
[Tim Kolb] “As far as Avid being antiquated…well, its editing and media management tools are second to none”
Hyperbole. I think you’d get quite an argument about Avid’s editorial workflow strengths at a number of different COW forums. It certainly has some powerful and mature features, but it’s also hobbled by a very antiquated design – it’s no longer “second to none” by a long shot. As for media management, yes, Avid’s consolidate feature is the most mature in any NLE. However for actually managing clips, it’s a bear and totally antiquated, with discreet edit and others (Lightworks would be another) far more flexible.Interesting…so I’m cutting Avid too much slack here? I’ve not spent much time with an Avid at all save for trying to use one long enough in 1995 to end up going another direction, but all I hear from Avid guys is how terrible the media management is in PPro and how fantastic it is in Avid…is FCP any better? I don’t usually figure in systems that are no longer made into these comparisons…
[Tim Kolb] “Avid has its traditional advantages intact”
This is about the least true thing one can say at this point:”Well…maybe I was cutting Avid too much slack again. There are a lot of Avid guys who are looking for a change and I think many of us are interested in what those users find valuable in their Avids, other than not learning a new system…
As I said is several areas of my post that you did not quote, Avid waited far too long to realize that their lofty perch atop the NLE world was being eaten out from under them. There was too much resting on their laurels and their pricing until one day they realized that FCP and Discreet and any number of other players (including Adobe) were taking away sales, getting customers to even open up to consider another system based on pricing many times…
Avid was one of the key players in making computer-based video editing practical and just as I don’t believe they are, or honestly ever will be positioned to move back to their old dominant position in the marketplace, I also don’t believe they’ll fade away anytime soon…
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
[Tim Kolb] “all I hear from Avid guys is how terrible the media management is in PPro and how fantastic it is in Avid…is FCP any better?”
Unfortunately (or not), Media Management is a rather large umbrella that covers many workflows and features. In much of these areas Avid truly excels. Because the underlying Avid architecture is bin-based rather than project, it’s fairly easy to access bins from other projects with a simple File>Open command. This becomes even more versatile with Avid Unity in sharing bins and sequences among different users. This is something not as easily done in PPro or FCP. which are more whole project based. OTOH with XSAN, FCP does make it fairly easy for multiple users to share projects, and which we do all the time. Avid’s consolidate function is another standout among the NLEs. I can’t comment on either PPro’s or FCP’s consolidate function. There are those on the FCP forum who refer to the Media Manager as Media Mangler, and there are those who feel that user error plays a large part in the problems. Again, I can’t comment.The part of Media Management where Avid doesn’t shine, is in the more nuts and bolts. Searching clips is a bear in Avid, which only works on a bin by bin basis, i.e. you can only search for clips in a specific bin, and not across all bins. Ths is something that can be done in PPro, although I gather it is limited to the single open project, while FCP allows searching among multiple/all open projects. Avid does have a Media Tool that will search across all bins, but it only looks for clips, and not sub-clips. It’s also unbearable slow. I believe there are some other positive media management tools in Avid, but they’re probably more valuable for a dedicated assistant.
[Tim Kolb] “As I said is several areas of my post that you did not quote”
I only quoted those parts that needed to be “clarified”. I wasn’t trying to rip you a new one…[Tim Kolb] “There was too much resting on their laurels and their pricing until one day they realized that FCP and Discreet and any number of other players (including Adobe) were taking away sales, getting customers to even open up to consider another system based on pricing many times…”
You can remove discreet edit from the list of past Avid worries. While edit* certainly had a positive effect in influencing Avid’s features and workflow, discreet’s marketing of edit was probably more of a concern than worry. It wasn’t until FCP 2.0 (and especially 3.0) came around that Avid got that jolt of reality, saw the future and learned the meaning of “worry”. While I personally think they handled this surprisingly well by scrambling and gambling to make XPress Pro so robust and still compete with it’s high end line (something discreet was unable to do with edit from a sales point), in the end, Avid has turned into a company that follows. Whether pricing or technically, Avid no longer is a leader. FCP pioneered the afforable HD soluiton, and Adobe and Apple are both able to offer more finely tuned integrated suites, something Avid needs to go to third parties for (with the exception of Pro Tools).I agree that Avid isn’t going away soon. It’s firmly entrenched in Hollywood and broadcasting, and no other NLE at the moment can seriosly compete with its Unity solution or with ProTools. However changes in our profession occur with ever increasing frequency, and with ever diminishing prices. I’m just not so sure that Avid will prove nimble enough to move with them. Followers generally never are. This was the case with CMX, LaserEdit, Convergence, Ediflex, Moviola, Steenbeck, Kem, et al – all leaders who are now footnotes… Not that I’m suggesting this of Avid.
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[Tim Kolb] “Bottom line is that anyone who contends they know what Ppro users in general, want…is speaking for themselves and whatever fraction of users find themselves in duplicate circumstances…and it’s always a smaller fraction of the whole than one might think.”
Tim,
You keep harping on the idea that everyone wants different thing from PPro. I think that’s a hugely relativistic and potentially unhelpful notion – especially if anyone at Adobe believes the same. I believe that the professional users pretty well want, more or less, the same features simply because that’s what they need to do their work without clumsy workarounds. You can insist that’s not true all you want but their voices speak differently in the various threads here and elsewhere.
I also suspect that if may of the features that “pro” users need (not want) are not in version 2 you’ll find that fraction is a much larger and noisier part of the whole than you think 🙂
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
[Les Kaye] “Tim Kolb] “but to slide it in increments of an audio sample?”
Unless something has changed, no. However this can be done in FCP and I believe in Edition & Vegas.”Not to be picky, Les, but last time I looked FCP could only manipulate audio tracks in 100th second increments, not by samples (48,000th or 96,000th second increments) and while 100th of a second may be adequate for FCP users we over on this side of the aisle require the greater accuracy of prcisely counting the number of angels dancing on the head of the pin, not taking an mere aproximation 😉
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
[Les Kaye] “However changes in our profession occur with ever increasing frequency, and with ever diminishing prices. I’m just not so sure that Avid will prove nimble enough to move with them. Followers generally never are. This was the case with CMX, LaserEdit, Convergence, Ediflex, Moviola, Steenbeck, Kem, et al – all leaders who are now footnotes… Not that I’m suggesting this of Avid.”
I think other than my making some positive assumptions based on the input of others, you and I are pretty much seeing things the same way…
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
[David Cherniack] “I believe that the professional users pretty well want, more or less, the same features simply because that’s what they need to do their work without clumsy workarounds. You can insist that’s not true all you want but their voices speak differently in the various threads here and elsewhere.”
Interesting…the threads concerning wish lists on this forum seem to illustrate the opposite to me. I see what I think are all professional users calling for many of the same features, but the priority each user has does vary wildly…
Media Management,
Networked workflow,
dual mono audio (a personal favorite of mine…I’m amazed this hasn’t caused an even louder outcry…)
More traditional bin management
Hot keys for everything, or at least macro capability
Time Remapping
Cut removalThe list goes on and on and a few of my personal hangups are the issue with not being able to do a standard 3 point edit with the source only having an out-point, scopes two-clicks deep in a menu, asset re-linking is still inferior to my Media 100-in 1995 that it drives me nuts…
But for nearly every poster on this forum who has posted a feature that “everyone can agree on is critical”…some other poster chimes in and says “Sure that’s fine, but not until they fix/get/add *this other* feature…”
As I’ve said before, I’m not saying “Stop asking”…I’m saying “Be aware of the cacophony that you’re a part of…and don’t think that if the feature you want isn’t in there, that Adobe isn’t listening.”
However, if there is a lack of a feature that makes PPro simply less useful to you than another system, I completely understand the necessity of switching. This isn’t a religon…it’s a tool.
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
David,
[David Cherniack] “Not to be picky, Les….”
That was rich! Good laugh for a wintry weekend.
Ron Shook
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