-
Story Building
-
Trevor
“My approach is more or less subtractive. I’ll put an entire interview on a sequence. Instead of using markers, I use the blade tool. I listen to the whole thing. As I find good sound bytes, I blade them into smaller clips. I move the good clips to V2. When I’m done with the whole interview, I copy all the clips from V2 into the main sequence of my video. I will then do the same process with the other interviews. I then end up with a bunch of good sound bytes”.Agreed, this is the best way to cut a short interview on an NLE. However, the original poster was talking about “building a story” which I assume is more than cutting down a simple interview. While subtractive editing is great for that, it is probably not the best way to assemble an entire show that will have other elements besides interviews, some of which will often need to be acquired later or created in post. And it is probably not the way to go if there is a large amount of interviews, that only a small percentage is going to be used.
Trevor,
“I’ll tell you getting a transcript and trying to edit from that is NOT a good idea. You can’t just edit based on words or sentences in a paragraph. Speech patterns make this really difficult.”I have to completely disagree with that. It may not be your preferred method, but it is a time proven method that works. And unless as the editor, you are also the producer, it avoids migration or hijacking of the original idea. Now if your a producer/editor the fluidity of subtractive editing might prove to be a useful creative tool and allow you to move your project in a different direction based on ‘where the material takes you’. But for some, that is not a good thing.
And it is entirely possible to edit based on words and sentences in a paragraph. We did it all the time on much less sophisticated gear than what is available now. Occasionally it is difficult, even impossible to cut exactly where you want, but thats not a reason to dismiss additive editing as useless. It just means you have to get creative to solve the problem.
Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com -
I’m not trying to be argumentative. But I didn’t learn any of this from anyone. I wish I would have. I could have learned things better and quicker. I would be a better editor/director as a result. But alas, all I have is my experience and trial and error. Each artist has to pick his tools and figure out how he works best with them.
My editing is very non-linear. I clearly log and properly identify my clips and subclips. But mine is more visually based than based on words. I edit on a 15″ laptop and don’t have the luxury of a lot of real estate for long log notes. I use short log notes. Also my camera op starts and stops the tape often, which helps segment things (especially in the non-tape environment).
I’ve worked on two documentaries of feature length (90+ minutes each). I DID act as director and editor for both. Which may be a benefit. One documentary had over 100 hours of footage. The other one had over 20 hours of interviews with over a dozen people. So my method CAN work for lots of footage by lots of people.
When my producer comes to me and asks, “remember that thing that one guy said? I want to use that.” I already know that it’s not possible. And then, I almost immediately find the clip and show him why it’s not going to work. I do admit, if I had a transcript, I would be able to find that clip instantly. Which I can’t do now.
As far as putting together a whole show or story, well, it helps if you have an outline ahead of time. I think someone mentioned that. Then, as certain topics are brought up, that fit the story arc or story line, then you grab all the sound bytes, b-roll footage, narration, etc. and put that into one section. I found it helpful to break the story down into Acts and Chapters. For example, my current 89 minute doc has about 25 chapters. I put all the sound bytes, archive footage, etc. that relates to that chapter in one sequence. I then end up with about 25 sequences.
This works for me for two reasons. One, it allows me to change up the order of the chapters quite easily. Two, it’s a decent way or organizing all my material and knowing what I have and what I don’t have.
You may not like my method. You may have a method that works better for you. It may even be better for most people. But for my situation, I find this works.
-trevor ward
Red Eye Film Co.
http://www.redeyefilmco.com
orlando, fl -
One of the features from Discrete Edit*6 I really miss is that I could re-name clips on the timeline at any time, and they would still know where they came from, so I could stretch the handles, etc. When I had the skeleton of my story on the timeline, it was fast and easy to find and move specific chunks around.
-
[Trevor Ward] “I’ll tell you getting a transcript and trying to edit from that is NOT a good idea. You can’t just edit based on words or sentences in a paragraph. Speech patterns make this really difficult.”
Well, that is about 90% of how I work. Producers cull soundbytes from transcripts, and I edit them to work. There are many times that the sentences are too much of a “Frankenbyte” to really make sense, so we figure something else out.
ANd I have been using software called GET that I love…it helps me find words, or phrases that I remember, but don’t know where they are. When I don’t have transcripts to help me find them.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
Some random thoughts. I don’t believe there is a right or wrong here. So I feel we should be able to contradict each other or ourselves without the polar opposite being wrong(ed). On the other hand, I don’t feel anyone should rule out an approach if they haven’t given it a shot.
The ironic objective of Non-linear editing is the production of a linear sequence, a time line.
The process does not start when you shoot. The process begins in preproduction and more specifically on the page.
The first editor is the writer. And I think it’s a good idea for the postproduction editor to return to this source before beginning to edit.What was the subject of the video? What was the message? How are you going to interpret that message?
There are times you need to subtract (or not add) a great moment, a great sound byte, a great beat, a great shot, a great scene simply because it does not get you to point B. A very linear concept. And it always feels good, when I find a home on the time line for such a shot. In other words, creating a new context for it that complements the story. However, it depends on the type of project. Taking things out of their original context may be unethical or simply lack integrity. Are you interpreting or manipulating simply because it sounds or looks good?
If you feel constrained by FCP’s browser’s ability to display detailed notes on a small monitor you might want to command tab to a duplication of those notes/meta data in an app like Excel. Or you could have a custom window set up in FCP where you give the browser the full length of the screen and then toggle back to your regular window set up.
I really like being able to sort my notes by character or location or reference (sound bytes) or time (code). Not necessarily because that is the order they should be edited in, but because it’s the order my mind can recall them in. Powerful means to search helps as well. GET looks amazingly useful. As does CATDV.
In a complex edit, where your mind just has trouble seeing the whole story sequence play out, it might be a good idea to “write” your story using these notes, then go back to FC and let it play out.
There is a film school assignment that I think is a good exercise for learning to story tell. It is simply that you shoot a short form project editing in camera. You need, therefore, to plan your sequence before you shoot a single frame.
Another experience that is worthwhile for everyone involved in the production process is to take a turn being the talent (even if you have none).
Production should be a collaborative effort where the writer, director, and editor are all on the same page.
OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A. -
Wow, loads of great tips there…nice Christmas present!
Just to go back to a technical point of the original poster. I would always create the multi cam clip at the beginning of the edit otherwise you will have to cut in the master clip again. I treat it like a separate clip and then decide on which cam to use later in the edit,
Nick
-
Craig,
“The ironic objective of Non-linear editing is the production of a linear sequence, a time line.”And so called linear editing (at least online style) wasn’t done linear most of the time. Since you were working on a striped tape, checkerboard editing was pretty much the norm since it was rare to have 100% of the necessary elements at the start of post.
Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com -
[Scott Sheriff] “Craig,
“The ironic objective of Non-linear editing is the production of a linear sequence, a time line.”And so called linear editing (at least online style) wasn’t done linear most of the time. Since you were working on a striped tape, checkerboard editing was pretty much the norm since it was rare to have 100% of the necessary elements at the start of post.”
Yes, but what both of you fail to mention is that both source and record tapes could only be accessed linearly, in a straight line, only from head to tail or in reverse, as there is no way to simply skip around in time on either source or record side. Even if you know exactly where you’re going, to the very frame, a move from minute one to minute sixty on the source requires shuttling all the way down the tape. Then, to insert the shot, even in checkerboard fashion, requires shuttling the record deck as well, which could also be the entire length of the tape. And, if you don’t know where you’re going, the only way to find something on tape is to play down the tape in a speed at least somewhat close enough to realtime so that you can monitor intelligible audio.
The problem with Trevor’s “linear style” on the timeline in FCP, which he fails to recognize, is that it too requires shuttling and finding intelligible audio, just like the scenario above, but with the ability to jump to forward and backward by clip or to the head and tail instantly. The beauty of using markers is the ability to move linearly, non-linearly, by key word, by log entry, etc.
Trevor’s methodology would not serve him well here in L.A. As I’m sure Craig is aware, here in L.A standardized industry methods are pretty much demanded wherever you work. The way that Shane and I both work and the methods we encourage here on the Cow are designed such that numerous, far-flung editors can collaborate seamlessly. And they insure that should anyone get sick, or fired, etc., another editor can take over immediately and be up to speed really fast. The method that Trevor uses requires his memory of the location of material on a timeline — if he leaves the project the producers could very well be hosed. I guess that’s a good way to try to achieve job security, but turning a NLE into a linear editor is just not a good way to edit a documentary. More importantly, it’s not the way neophytes should be encouraged to edit documentaries.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
https://www.drwfilms.comPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.
-
I’m not familiar with GET. Who makes that software? It’s a tough name to search for… Thanks.
-
GET is made by AV3 software. Here’s the link: https://www.av3software.com/search/manufacturers?manufacturers=av3-software
It’s a very nice app. Look for my review coming soon to the Creative Cow near you.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
https://www.drwfilms.comPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up