Sony Vegas 13 Sony AVC vs MainConcept – My tests, your experiences.

[Rob Clapham]

Hey all,

I rendered my Neat Video plug in, in Sony MXF, the one with a default bitrate of 36mbps. Worked a treat and a slightly smaller file size than the original file from my camera.

I also sped up NeatVideo by changing the temporal radius down to 1. So it is now rendering at 11fps (or at least that’s what NeatVideo kindly tells me.) I also have a question about dithering – I’ll save that for a new thread though, as it may be helpful for others.

I haven’t tried MXF outside of this, Aaron mentions that it is faster than Sony AVC – I wondered if YouTube accepts .mxf files? I’ll have to try that out later. Without testing it, I can’t say whether it is faster than Sony AVC, but between MainConcept and Sony AVC I can see very little difference in quality if any. But the render time with Sony AVC is a lot better on my current hardware – again I’ll check Sony MXF tonight.

Thanks, Rob

[Aaron Star]

YouTube does accept xdcam-ex.mxf, XAVC.mxf, but not HDCAM.mxf ironically. HDCAM is older form of MPEG4 intra and was the go to format before Prores, but they support dnxhd and prores. Go figure.

[Rob Clapham]

Hi Aaron,

I guess that’s because dnxhd is in the Quicktime format? Maybe, I’m wrong. Seems strange though, as my experience with dnxhd, I haven’t been able to change the bitrate (other than the presets) and I think the lowest is around 45mbps (from memory) which is way over YouTube’s preferred bitrate.

I did get round to testing, whether .mxf was faster than the Sony AVC encode. Unfortunately on my machine the time is pretty much exactly the same. Not a huge deal, so I guess it’s easier to use Sony AVC as that is ready for YouTube…

But the problem is the Sony AVC files I’ve tried out on YouTube, play back flawlessly on both my main computer, tablet and the Chromebook we’ve got kicking around. However on the TV (fire stick) the YouTube app, basically ruins the video with very out of sync audio.

Not sure if this is a problem, with Sony AVC or YouTube’s TV app – as uploading the video, YouTube does warn that there ‘may be’ sync problems. But as I say, it works fine on multiple devices just not the TV. Strange.

I guess I’ll have to try out MainConcept again, to see if that fixes uploaded videos on the TV. But, that will double my render time (compared to Sony AVC) – which I guess is the better price to pay, to ensure compatability.

I could actually use dnxhd, as when I tested it, the render time was comparable to Sony AVC (around 1:1 with no effects, 1:2 with effects) Sorry, if I got my ratio’s wrong – hopefully they make sense. But I’ll have to double check that.

I’ll have to check out Wayne’s suggestion for frame serving, as well.

Best, Rob

[Wayne Waag]

Rob Clapham

I also wondered when reading the article if it’s possible to do it ‘manually.’ What I mean is, is it possible to download debug mode’s Frame Server only, and then click a few buttons to get it to work with Handbrake?

No. Handbrake will not directly read the “fake” avi that the debugmode frameserver produces. It is necessary to install the other software (Avisynth and Pismo). It may appear complex, but it only takes a few minutes to install and set up. If you install just the frameserver, you can render with TMPGEnc’s Mastering Works.

In my view, installing and learning to use Debugmode Frameserver, Avisynth, and Virtualdub pays huge dividends in the long term since it opens up a vast array of filters and processes that are often better than the paid plug-ins and are free, a good example being Neat Video that can easily introduce the “plastic” look. Another example, fish-eye removal when using action cam footage from a GoPro.

Regarding your AV sync issue, this really sounds like a YT/Firestick problem. A question for you. If your goal is to watch “your” video productions on “your” TV, why would would you go to the bother of uploading to Youtube and suffer the inevitable loss of quality? It is very easy to stream directly from your pc or use an external storage device in conjunction with a dedicated media player or just a blu-ray player. My preference is actually a Sony blu-ray player (I use a 2013 model.) since it plays 1080 60P video files without issue and also supports the MKV container, which allows chapter selection. Just a few things to consider.

wwaag

[Rob Clapham]

Hi Wayne,

Thanks for the response. Good to know that Handbrake can’t read the “fake” avi files on it’s own – and that the article you originally posted is the way to do it properly.

I think removing the GoPro’s fisheye is done with VirtualDub isn’t it? I have used VirtualDub ages ago, for the stabilisation plug in – very useful stuff. I agree that NeatVideo can make things look very plasticy – I’ve had much more success with it now though, by altering the settings (something for some reason, I never thought to do, until I encountered that plastic look.) Since then I reduced the temporal radius from 2 to 1, which sped things up a lot – and in my opinion didn’t make the noise profile look much ‘worse.’ Even reducing the amount of noise being removed to -60%, the plugin managed to remove a lot of noise and not look like plastic. I really should invest in some better lighting though, to get my ISO down.

Well, hopefully the videos I put on YouTube will be seen by a ‘wider audience’ that is if people want to watch them. So, it isn’t for just for me to watch – if that makes sense. I agree, if it was a private/home movie or something similar uploading to YouTube isn’t the best approach. I just put a couple of videos up as I was testing out Acon Digital’s “Deverberate” plug in. I had already played it back on headphones and it sounded good to me, and wanted something else to compare it to other than laptop speakers. That’s how I encountered the audio and video sync problems with the Firestick. I did think it was odd though as the Sony AVC files I uploaded, mentioned during the YouTube upload process that video and audio might be out of sync. But as I already said, it was fine on everything I tested except the Firestick.

I wonder if the message I saw was relating to watching videos on the TV, whether it’s a Firestick, Roku or something similar? Come to think of it, a test I uploaded last night had the same problem and that was encoded with Handbrake (after I made a Sony AVC video) – as I wanted to see if the Audio/Video sync issues still remained, and they did – So I guess you’re right and that it is a problem with the Firestick. I’ll have to watch some other videos people have uploaded to see if it’s out of sync there (I mainly use YouTube to ‘watch’ radio type broadcasts with one picture, so maybe that’s why I haven’t noticed it before.) The YouTube message saying that there may be problems, also directed me to their help page on how to encode a video. But the page was only talking about Apple NLE’s and how to use QuickTime. The videos I’ve uploaded on YouTube are private, and have been up a couple of days so it’s not that YouTube hasn’t processed them yet.

Best, Rob

[Rob Clapham]

Sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to edit my above post.

Yeah, it’s definitely to do with YouTube on my Friestick (I wonder if other streaming devices have similar problems?) – played a video and it was just as out of sync as mine were.

Still, I think it’s strange that YouTube said I may experience sync issues. Does this occur when other people upload their videos?

[Wayne Waag]

Rob Clapham

Sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to edit my above post.

It’s been changed. To edit, simply hit the reply button to your post and to the left you will see the edit button.

I think removing the GoPro’s fisheye is done with VirtualDub isn’t it? I use an Avisynth script that you simply open in Virtualdub. I’ve put together a Vegas script for automatically going directly from events on the Vegas timeline to the avisynth script in Virtudaldub. The “defished” file is then added as a Take to the original event. Just select the events, and walk away till the processing is done.

I agree that NeatVideo can make things look very plasticy

A far better denoiser IMHO are some avisynth scripts written by John Meyer. Whereas Neatvideo is mostly a spatial filter, his scripts are temporal in nature. They are a lot more difficult to run, but the results are better and they don’t cost anything. I find that with NeatImage for stills, you often get that plastic look as well. It’s very easy to overdo the amount of noise reduction.

So, it isn’t for just for me to watch – if that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense. If it’s for internet distribution, you really don’t have much choice. As far as the potential out of sync warning, I get that most of the time as well, even when there is no dialog. Also the message that your video is shaky. Lets face it. Lots (most?) of people will watch YT stuff on their phone or a tablet or pc that’s got a slow internet connection. Even with my 100 MBps download, lots of videos are pretty shaky and not very smooth. It’s all to easy too forget that content is still king.

wwaag

[Rob Clapham]

Thanks Wayne,

I still think NeatVideo can be pretty effective, once the settings are optimised. But saying that, I haven’t had the benefit of comparing it to the denoiser you mention by John Meyer. So it’s more than likely a big improvement – I’m interested in checking this out, but I don’t have an i7 and if it’s quite intensive, it might be better for me to stick with NeatVideo until I can upgrade my computer.

Your post has opened my eyes a lot. I think I’ve been obsessing over trying to get everything to run quickly etc. That I’ve forgotten to actually make the videos because I enjoy it!

You’re absolutely right by saying “content is king.” The amount of stuff I watch, sometimes with poor audio, sometimes poor video, sometimes both – and the reason I carry on watching? Content. Sometimes, you need someone to point the obvious out!

Take care,

Rob