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So what happens to our hardware…?
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[Walter Soyka] “Jeremy, I’ll argue this point with you every time you make it.
Saying that Apple prefers system stability over speed suggests that there is a tradeoff to be made, and that other vendors are choosing the other side and thus putting their customers’ businesses at risk.
“Ugh. Apple tightly controls their hardware to offering a more controlled system to their clients for stability. I did not mention risk, I did not mention other platforms aren’t stable, I am talking about Apple and it’s philosophies. Please, I ask you, please, stop putting words in my mouth.
You don’t have to RegEdit, you don’t have to install separate drivers, you don’t have to edit DLLs, you don’t have to rip apart your machine. Macs have traditionally been less tinker, and more controlled system. And yes this was done for OS stability, and ease of use, at the cost of speed. When you take some of the options away, your system is more stable. And by stable, I’m not saying that it doesn’t work at all.
I am not saying other machines aren’t stable, I am not talking about other systems. I am talking about Macs and the philosophy behind it. That’s it.
[Walter Soyka] “In your mind, which vendors prefer speed over stability? Has any professional systems vendor introduced a product to the market that actually sacrifices stability in favor of speed?”
I think there is a trade off. Absolutely. Some programs are way more crashy, but they get the job done faster. Macs favor a rock solid OS, and Windows doesn’t care as much about that as they wanted people to tinker with it. They don’t sell systems, they sell a part of a system. They have different philosophies. Right?
[Walter Soyka] “he performance problem is that Apple allows the line to languish for over a year at a time without speed bumps or price drops, despite the introduction of faster processors or the declining cost of major components.”
We are splitting hairs again here. Day after day, night after night on this forum, you will see that people have bought Windows machines and they “run rings” around their Macs. I’m sorry dude, I’m sticking to my guns on this one. Macs aren’t the fastest machines, especially for the cost. Period. That has never really been the case. When new macs are released, they might compare, but give it six months, and they won’t compare.
[Walter Soyka] “I’ve been seeing a lot of FUD slung at Windows (not necessarily by you) on this forum. “
I have seen the other way too. This is part of my problem. There is FUD everywhere and a ton of it is unwarranted. I will tell you, that I will not be able to run my business that relies on me as “systems administrator” with Windows. I cannot clone machines. Period. I could take my iMac clone, and boot it on one of the MacPro clones and continue working. Can you do that with Windows? No. I am not separating FUD, and I could care less what anyone else wants to do, but there is real truth to the decisions that I am making for our company. It’s not about if the computers turn on or not, or about processing speed, it is simply about running a network of computers that I have to support as long as do my day job of editing.
I do not hate Windows, I am just not going to go over there because the grass is greener, and I can get some extra GPU cycles for cheaper. There has been zero mention by Apple that the MacPro is going away. None. Yes, there could be something else coming, and the MacPro could maybe go away, but until then we wait and make the decision when the time comes. I wrote in one of these posts that everything I have in this shop is cross platform hardware wise, even our MacPros. If the bomb drops, we have a shelter.
[Walter Soyka] “HP has sent me a Z800, and it’s well-engineered, well-built, and perfectly stable. It’s also available in significantly faster configurations than the Mac Pro. “
I respect you and your views, so take this as no offense, but if I had a free machine, I’d use it too and probably speak very well of it. You can’t beat free.
[Walter Soyka] “I am amazed at the number of people who have said here that they’d consider trying to piece together and maintain a Hackintosh for professional work, when they could simply buy a well-built and well-supported Windows PC instead.”
I agree with you here as that sounds like a recipe for disaster. I will not bet our four editing systems on a hack.
Sorry, but I don’t mean any offense.
Jeremy
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[Dylan Hargreaves] “It seems pretty clear by now that Apple does not consider the pro-video/broadcast/film arena as somewhere it wants to be. Steve Jobs (RIP) has even said on many occasions: ‘Apple is a mobile device company’.”
Just remember, that for long time NAB attendees like me, there were decades of no hint of a computer company like Apple. Then a stretch of about 5 years when we saw a long major decline of the big broadcast companies and the ascendence of the computer companies like Apple, Avid and Adobe. They were part of what re-defined professional video in the late 90’s and through the turn of the century.
Then they moved on. Apple was the first out – but that didn’t’ mean they stopped developing for the market – they just went outside of the “inside industry” view and arguably, took it in new directions.
For someone with an exclusively “broadcast” orientation, that may look strange, but it was a world where the only real options you had for viewing content was your home TV and your local movie theatre.
Today, that’s just not the same at ALL.
Instead of two places, video is integrated into hundreds of places in the everyday person’s life. And (and this can’t be emphasized too much, IMO.) It’s increasingly disconnected from the “embedded commercial” driven distribution model. For every “tv channel” in a bar, on a mall sales floor, or displayed on someone’s blackberry while they’re stuck waiting for a bus – there are now a virtually unlimited array of sources of compelling content available. (Including, I might add, the excellent tutorials residing right here on the COW!)
I agree that isn’t “broadcast” or “film” via the classic definitions (tho I could argue handily that if you allow for just a “slightly” looser definition of “broadcast” the COW tutorials are exactly that!) but I still contest that stripping it from the PRO Video label is a major, glaring mistake.
In fact, I think there will be more “PRO” video being created for OTHER than broadcast and movie distribution in the future.
And it will be as “pro” as people like us chose to make it – and completely disconnected from the choice of tool we use for creation.
It’s no a “mobile device” play. It’s a “foreseeable future of where the largest group of customers will want to USE video” play.
FWIW.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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“Apple tightly controls their hardware to offering a more controlled system to their clients for stability”
That’s what they say. One can also argue that they do it to keep buying into their ecosystem and only from them (App store anyone).
“You don’t have to RegEdit, you don’t have to install separate drivers, you don’t have to edit DLLs, you don’t have to rip apart your machine”.
You don’t have to do any of that either on Windows7. You can if you want to, but that’s pretty much like using the terminal under OSX for people who know what they are doing. What do you mean by “seperate drivers”?
“I could take my iMac clone, and boot it on one of the MacPro clones and continue working.”
Unless you have a recent Lion iMac and your MacPro clone is on Snow Leopard. You cannot even do a clean install with SL then.“Can you do that with Windows?”
Actually, yes, you can. If your hardware is similar. If not, you obviously will have issues but the same applies to a Mac in principle, too.“…f I had a free machine, I’d use it too and probably speak very well of it”.
I paid for mine. And speak very well of it.“Macs favor a rock solid OS”
I see zero difference in stability with Win7 compared to Snow Leopard. I am very heavy workloads, batch encoding plus a lot of harware attached. -
Here’s some facts.
https://www.sonicscoop.com/2011/10/27/avid-announces-restructuring-lays-off-10-of-workforce/
https://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/us-adobe-idUSTRE7A77R220111109
It’s not easy out there and there are no clear choices.
What is certainly clear, is change, all you have to do is look at the facts and sometimes they are scary.
Jeremy
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[walter biscardi] “Apple is no longer interested in enterprise solutions so the dedicated desktop machine that is used by professionals is going away. “
Which begs the question “for how long will the enterprise exclusively remain interested in enterprise solutions.”
For the “back of house” tasks, for a long time likely.
But in the new era where it’s quite possible that a worker will have better technology available to them personally, than the enterprise can afford to plop on their desktop – then it’s also fair to look downstream and see what the general cultural migration from “computer is a thing that companies have” to “computers are things that people have” might bring about in business.
FWIW.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Frank Gothmann] “That’s what they say. One can also argue that they do it to keep buying into their ecosystem and only from them (App store anyone).”
Yeah, it’s a system. You buy a Red camera, that’s another system. Some products are a system. For us, it’s worked well and we’d like it to continue.
[Frank Gothmann] “What do you mean by “seperate drivers”? “
I use Windows Server 7 Ultimate, I think, I don’t even know where to check for versions of installed software, but everything new you plug in to that computer needs a driver and it searches and searches…
[Frank Gothmann] “Unless you have a recent Lion iMac and your MacPro clone is on Snow Leopard. You cannot even do a clean install with SL then.”
No, but you can clone an Snow Leopard machine to a current Lion Machine. I’ve done it.
[Frank Gothmann] “Actually, yes, you can. If your hardware is similar. If not, you obviously will have issues but the same applies to a Mac in principle, too.”
If your hardware is similar you say? You mean like a Mac? Sorry, you set me up for that one!
I can boot any computer from any computer clone here, and they are all different variances of years. They are all intel, that’s pretty much the only common denominator.
[Frank Gothmann] “I see zero difference in stability with Win7 compared to Snow Leopard. I am very heavy workloads, batch encoding plus a lot of harware attached.”
Our Windows 7 Ultimate machine controls our SAN. It has been decently stable, a few blue screens, but then again we were beta testing a prerelease SAN. Now that everything is released (and we paid for it), it’s been running great, but all is does is pass data so it’s not a real test.
I am sure Windows 7 is awesome, and I would say have fun with it. Dylan asked what’s going to happen to our hardware, my answer at this time is not “Windows 7”. That’s all.
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I’m not sure why anyone would jump on you for having VERY valid concerns. Mac Pros are no longer on display at Apple Stores, and ZERO communication from Apple as to what it’s future is.
That isn’t just a rumor, that is exactly what Apple is doing. Some will incessantly argue for arguments sake that you can still buy one at their online store…that still doesn’t assuage the concern. And seems to placate to Apples egregious silence. Or, the argument is summarily dismiss that niche that relies on top tier hardware as a headache to Apple and they *should* treat that niche with contempt.
Apple, in the last year, is blowing away confidence. Not by rumors, by their actions. And any concern is validated by them and them alone. Not haters or internet bullies, but by the very market that helped define their pro divisions they were very keen on exploiting in years of branding.
I don’t think it’s a lot to ask, when faced with a 3500-6000 purchase your business may depend on, what the future is when their ACTIONS are determining a bleak one….
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So… what point are you trying to make? We all know the economy is tough right now. Even more reason to have choices at your disposal.
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My point is that I think Apple is going to be OK, but that’s how I feel. I’m not scared.
I am pretty tired of getting jumped on by every single post that I make because I think Apple and it’s ecosystem or whatever you want to call it, is going to be all right. I don’t have the answers, but I do tend to think positively. Go buy a Windows 7 machine if you want. We did, it runs our SAN. Good luck with it.
Dylan, to answer your question again.
Only Apple knows. You can still buy a MacPro on the Apple Store today. Until then, we just don’t know, and Apple won’t tell you until it’s decided.
The rest of the rumors is up to you to wade through, and be sure to roll with the punches, they come fast and furious around here.
Jeremy
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Wow. Got pretty lively round here!
We’re not talking about a change that’s gonna happen overnight here. But when the change does come it’s gonna be seismic. I’m finding it hard enough finding the right moment to switch editing software, so when the hell is it gonna be convenient to rip our entire edit suite out and start again?? Unless we go down Walter’s route and gradually build a jerry-rigged system of external boxes and hardware! (Walt, I’m sure your system is an elegant thing of beauty to behold!)
Who knows. Maybe by then a decent iMac will be able to do it all on the cloud… We’d just better hope our broadband connections never fail mid-project!
D
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