SDI Embedded +10db higher than it should

[Leigh Jewell]

[JeremyG] “i output -12 bars (which is FCPs default) -12 shows up in FCP -12 shows up on the deck. If I output -20 bars, FCP meters read -20, deck meters read -20. I am running os 10.4.2, QT 7.0.3 and Kona 1.2 drivers and latest firmware (from April 2005). It should be working for you guys, unless there’s some setting in your deck that you’re missing.”

Well, Jeremy, everything on my computer is setup accurately and I have all of the latest updates and drivers. You should know, however, that -12 (FCP’s default) is 8db too hot. “Normal” is -20db on Digibetas and on DV decks. (I can tell you the specific deck if you want.) If that is what you have been outputting, your outputs have been 8db too hot. But you are right, in FCP, the audio setting is set to -12 for bars and that is exactly where it is hitting on the deck.

Leigh

[Jeremy Garchow]

Okay, now ya got me totally confused. You mean that if you output -12, you get -12 on the deck? Then everything is working. If you need to mix for -20, then mix for -20. My SD93 is normalled to -20 too. If ya need -20 to be the ceiling, then make sure nothing goes over -20 in the fcp bars. Simple. OPen the bars in the viewer of FCP, select the stereo A1A2 tab and set the bars to -20 instead of -12.

You are the master of your own destiny. You are allowed to set your bars to -20 and mix your program to -20 if you want to. Why not do it?

[Leigh Jewell]

Actually, that is exactly what I do if I want to output correct embedded audio. (See my previous post.)
Bars and tone on a tape are what people using the tape after you use to set up the tape to “normal.” If all of your audio is output at the +8db then you may be okay, since the next person setting it up to your bars and tone will lower the playback to the correct level. However, you are assuming (and we all know what that means) that the person playing back your tape will actually bother to set it up to what you (basically, incorrectly) output. I say “incorrectly” because, having been a tape op, when you put in a Digibeta or DV tape in the deck, you shouldn’t have to adjust the audio levels. The playback knobs should be all pushed in and tone and all the rest of the audio should be at the normal -20. If you keep your audio at the +8db, your “ceiling” won’t be -12. Your audio from your program could and probably will be higher and lower than that. Therefore, you run the risk of distorting your audio.
As I said in my previous post, what I normally do, if I have to output using embedded audio, I export the sequence as a movie. Bring that movie back into FCP, lower the audio to the correct db (it will show up as 0 so you want to lower it to -8).
As a last note, I don’t use Final Cut Pro’s bars (or tone). The bars are actually not really correct either. The I and Q are wrong.

Leigh

[Jeremy Garchow]

Well, to each his or her own. I don’t get what you’re saying, but I’m done with this. Your FCP and Kona card are working just fine. Either master at -20 or -12 or 0 for analog, whichever way you see fit. If the guy/gal on the other end don’t get it right, then it’s not your fault. You did your job and you should expect them to do theirs. That’s what scopes and meters are for, to give everyone a visual frame of reference. As far as you being a tape op and not having to adjust levels, that’s kinda weird to me, but what do I know? It’s exactly what bars and tone are for, to calibrate your system to theirs, and I highly doubt that your system and their system are the same, so you being the tape op, adjust. When I mix my program if I want the ceiling to be -20 then I watch to make sure that nothing goes over -20. It’s really that simple. That is my job as editor to make sure it all lines up and fits into the proper specs.

Jeremy

[Gary Adcock]

[Leigh Thomas] “The levels out that I have on the + side are at +8db even from Final Cut’s bars
To solve this problem and give me a bit more control on sound input and output,”

Leigh..
is there some reason why you do not change the default tone settings to match your needs for output?
That db tone setting is editable (I have one client that uses -18db for their output)

also I see this is an FCP issue- not a kona one.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Gary Adcock]

[Leigh Thomas] “The levels out that I have on the + side are at +8db even from Final Cut’s bars
To solve this problem and give me a bit more control on sound input and output,”

Leigh..
is there some reason why you do not change the default tone settings to match your needs for output?
That db tone setting is editable (I have one client that uses -18db for their output)

also I see this is an FCP issue- not a kona one.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Marcus Ionis]

From the pervious AJA products we have, the two AJA I/O’s and an earlier SD AJA card. We had set the FCP audio levels at -10db and fed it SDI into the Digibeta deck. The audio reading was dead on “full display ‘-20db'”/ “fine display ‘0’”. This is how we have been judging correct levels. Also looking at the program levels on the deck to make it’s within broadcast standards. When we received the KONA 2 card all audio adjustments changed. ( Please read above for my KONA 2 issues.) I’m trying to look for a consistence in the products to minimums potential problems. Mastering to video tape needs to be an accurate profession w/ precision tools. If the tools are not precise then the art of mastering is not.
If your facility has Digibeta, DV (SDI), D5 and/or HDCAM, please perform some test and post them.

Thank you guys for your responses,
Marcus