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SAN vs NAS
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Has anyone even tried realtime video on a Mac with SMB or NFS?
REPLY –
I use NFS all the time on Mac platform – it works great. It has various problems with FCP – SOMETIMES – sometimes, it does not read time code, and sometimes, it will not read files (or even see files) if it does not have .mov extentions. We run a system with NFS (to get 30 clients to connect at once) and it does not see some of the files on the server – if we manually modify the file name to .mov at the end, then FCP will see the files. Is this a pain in the butt – you bet it is, which is why we stick with AFP (for MAC).Just because something theoretically works (mr smartie pants) does not mean that your editing application will work properly with it.
This is the reason you can NEVER ASK an IT person for advice on a video editing system.Bob Zelin
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Hi Todd,
you were contacted by John West at Maxx Digital about purchasing these Small Tree cards, and you told him in an email that “you did not know what he was talking about” – all we are trying to do is help you – I have no idea of what is going on here ?If you simply call John West at Maxx Digital at (714) 374 4944, we will set you up with the 10 Gig Small Tree cards you need, and get everything working for you ? Is this ok with you ?
bob Zelin
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Hey Bob, I think their is a lot of people looking at the same things here. I myself in very interested in 10gE networking SAN or NAS systems.
Are you going to do a tutorial anytime soon using Small Tree hardware? I for one would be excited to see that.
The one thing like about Creative Cow is that it blew up with Final Cut Pro, so it is a very Mac Centric location. So any tutorials using Mac hardware makes it really easy to follow along. Mac’s being as close to TURNKEY systems as possible.
Hiring an engineer is worth its weight in gold, but its nice to see the tutorials that you and others make, so we can evaluate it in a way, before we bother any engineers.
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[Bob Zelin] “Just because something theoretically works (mr smartie pants) does not mean that your editing application will work properly with it. This is the reason you can NEVER ASK an IT person for advice on a video editing system.”
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.”
I’m surprised to hear that NFS even works in theory. I would have thought it would be completely unsupported.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
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To maintain Windows and Mac compatability on a NAS system, could I use XFS (Linux) instead of SMB (Windows) or AFP (Apple)? Any advantage in running a server-based network over a server-less peer-to-peer network?
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to Walter –
what does “unsupported” mean ? Apple doesn’t support any of this. This is us screwing around, and figuring out how to get this to work.As for Alexander –
this is the current status of 10 Gig shared storage. 10 Gig is amazing, but the drive arrays are the current limitation. This is the “tutorial” – you stick a multiport 10 Gig card into your “server” (a Mac Pro), and run a single 10 Gig ethernet cable out to each “client”. Each client must also have a 10 Gig card in it. Because the price of the cards and switches are really EXPENSIVE, we are currently suggesting to hold off on the switch, and only use the 10 Gig cards. The 10Gig 6 port card is over $3000, and each 10 Gig client card is about $1900. Again, we are not using a switch – this is direct connect, and we assign seperate subnets to each port of the multi port card.
With that said, the solution is a little unrealistic today. Certainly you can get the wonderful expensive JMR 16 bay chassis with split buss that will do 1200MB/sec as your drive array, but we have found that most people don’t want to spend this kind of money. Most people want cheap, and currently Maxx Digital Drive arrays are still “expensive” (between 5 – 8 grand) to run one of these systems, and only gives you 600 -700MB/sec. This means that you are only going to get TWO clients working at one time, each at 300MB/sec (2K DPX files). People say “but I want six guys to run at the same time all with uncompressed 2K files”. Well, with the JMR you can get 4 clients to run right now.
But VERY SOON, the 6 Gig drives will be released. The 6 Gig cards and chassis are coming out any day now (and this is all we will be selling, even if the 6 Gig drives are not out yet) – and a 16 bay with 6 Gig drives will do 2200MB/sec, to allow all 6 editors to do uncompressed 2K DPX files.
So currently, it is practical to purchase a 2 port 10 gig card (about $1900) and stick this into your Mac Pro “server”, and plug in your two FCP/Smoke/RedCineX clients into this server and edit with TWO CLIENTS (with no expansion). You can get the 6 port card, but unless you get the more expensive drive chassis, (or wait for the 6 Gig drives), you are only going to get 2 clients to work at once at this resolution.
You must remember that all this stuff is EXPENSIVE compared to ethernet (but ethernet can only support the ProRes422 resolutions).
No matter what you need the MAC Pro as a server, and the disk drive card, and fast drive array. This is a given, be it Gig E or 10Gig E. With GigE, it’s only about 2 grand for all the special ethernet gear to make a 10 client shared storage system. But with 10GigE, everything requires an expensive card – AND you can’t run iMAC’s or Mac Book Pro’s. You need a card slot. So, you would buy the 6 port 10GigE card (about $3200 appx.), a $1900 card for each MAC Client computer, and fibre cable to connect them. 10GigE currently uses Fibre cable, not CAT 6A cable. Will this change in 6 months – probably, and then you will regret getting the cards that use Fibre.
Nick Hasson is using cheaper 10GigE cards (about $1200 each) because his system has SHORT CABLE RUNS of under 30′. This uses TWINAX cable for 10GigE. You CANNOT extend TWINAX cable beyond 30′ – if you need 50′, you MUST run fibre cable, and this increases the price of all the cards, and you need SFP+ transcevers for all the cards, and fibre cable.
MORAL – if you think you are going to get a 10GigE system for the same price as a current 1Gig Etherent system, you are dreaming – maybe one day, when Apple puts 10Gig ethernet ports native on the motherboards of the MAC’s – but today is not that day.
For most people, they will stick with Gigabit ethernet to do normal ProRes422 or DVCProHD editing. And for those that need a lot more – they will use Fibre Channel SAN (unless you only have 2 systems, and then you can use 10Gig ethernet right now).
Bob Zelin
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I have always had more favoritism towards SANs, realistically the only difference between a SAN and a NAS is the way the storage is accessed. NAS = behind a server, Network attached Storage, SAN = Everyone direct attached to the storage, Storage Area Network. Hence SAN will always be faster since there is no middle man and you can take full advantage of the raw speed of the storage.
it’s interesting though with new technologies emerging, we’ll see all type of storage (SAS, SCSI, Firewire, USB, etc.) being used as SAN volumes, and using 10Gb Ethernet pipes. FCoE (fibre Channel over Ethernet) is going to make this possible and considerably lower the cost of storage and allowing us to use alternatives to fiber channel storage.
If we are going to be able to use the same cheap SAS and other direct attached storage as were using today in these NAS environments then why put a server in the middle?
Shane Sokolosky
Manager of integration Services
ProMax Systems
Direct: 949.861.2729
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Irvine, CA 92614
(949) 861-2700 : Office
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This is sounding like a potentially more attractive (and easier to maintain) alternative to an XSan. I’ve got 3 Mac Pros that need to be able to access our array and chew on our library of REDcam footage and DPX files. My three workstations have 30ft, 60ft, and 90ft cable runs to the array. I can do fiber or copper, but obviously I’d prefer copper if possible.
Is this a workable solution?
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