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RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
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[Tom Sefton] “Would you take the challenge to spot arri footage against red with the new IPP2 colour science?”
No, because there are too many variables. A lot of it depends on the specific shot. You can have some images where both look pretty equal, whereas on others they look drastically different. I look at it from a grading standpoint and more often than not, I am happier with Alexa footage. That being said, I’ve posted (edit, finish, and grade) two indie features and one short that were shot with REDs. They all looked good.
But, how does this factor with 8K?
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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With all of the breathless hype about 4K and 8K, it’s important to separate fact from fiction, real-world applications from marketing. This is a must-see presentation on resolution for anyone working in the industry today:
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Oliver and Alan, thanks for posting the Yedlin videos. These two videos absolutely should be mandatory viewing for anyone working in the industry today.
I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
– Orson Welles -
The cycle from “why HD?” to “why 4k?” to “why 8k?” is an example of the reduction in tech cycles that is proportional to the cycles of CPU, GPU and drive speed & size developments. And cost of course. So the question is self answering. We always seem to move to the next resolution to make sure there is a difference between higher end production and the rest. When the iPhone/ Hydrogen/ Samsung phone in 2020 moves to 8k HDR we will be already asking “why 16k?”
It’s a moot point for me. It’s just a matter of when. I see no reason to question why as that cycle is inevitable. I see a potential limitation with lenses but its not just about pixels and the 8k weapon from RED uses a super 35 sensor with a very large range of suitable lenses. Besides we will be moving to multiple lenses eventually.
We already have a glimpse of that next trend with the Lytro type pf capture with much higher pixel resolution, multiple lenses/ streams to be able to chose framing and frame rates in post without penalty. Within a generation we might be saying, how did we ever manage with 16k 32 bit ultra HDR @ 120 fps.
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[Michael Gissing] “It’s a moot point for me. It’s just a matter of when.”
Did you watch the Yedlin videos?
I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
– Orson Welles -
[Greg Janza]”Did you watch the Yedlin videos?”
Yes I saw them a while back. I’ve read similar arguments in lots of Red Shark editorials too. I also understand the role of things like lenses, camera filters, particulate matter in the air etc and being a grader, using post tools. Noise is an old trick for increasing perceptual sharpness for example.
The pixel juggernaut is rolling on because neither Red nor NHK care about those things. They will supply demand. Netflix’s newest deliverables specs are similarly ridiculous as the Alexa is considered sub par but preferred by cinematographers. I get the frustration of cinematographers. I am now using my Ursa Mini 4.6 to take stills from a 60 fps video stream and sold my Canon 5dMK2 because I prefer the look of the Ursa @ 4:1 compressed RAW to the 5D at near 6k and RAW. Partly because I prefer to grade in Resolve but also because it is a fantastic way to get the killer moment in action and the great look of that camera.
So when studios or post pipelines demand 8k+ they will get it and the camera manufacturers are already gearing up to supply it. It doesn’t have to make absolute sense in perceptual terms. Ultimately the 8k cameras will look better and that may not be about pixel count, but they will have better color science, lower noise and greater dynamic range. They will also have higher pixel counts.
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[Oliver Peters] “So what’s the fascination with 8K anyway? “
Without 8k as a transitional phase, can’t get to the point where you justify all that CSI dialog… “Zoom in on his eyeball – now enhance – enhance – enhance?”
????Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
Just point out that “corporate video” today can go well beyond standard TV and Theatrical in terms of production sophistication and scope.
Exhibit A for me was the show at ComiCon I saw some months back.
I have a dear friend who’s a huge Dr. Who fan, so since it was her first ComiCon, I joined her to snag coveted Hall H seats early.
Before that morning, I didn’t have the TV show Supernatural in my radar at all – it apparently has been incredibly popular with teen and post teen young women for a decade.
Point is, this was essentially a one-off “corporate video” presentation by Warner Brothers to promote their property.
Not only was the projection and staging equal to anything I’ve seen before (outside, maybe Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon show I saw in the 1970s when this level of WOW was completely and utterly unexpected!) – I understand the car that the main characters drive in is a “character” in the show – as is the pop music they play on its Radio – so of course after the show opening smoke cleared – there was Kansas, live on stage, to launch into “Dust in the Wind.” providing sync sound to their “corporate video” on steroids.
Basically, today, thinking what appears in a local cinema – or on your TV – or anywhere else represents a “superior level” of the production arts – is an increasingly suspect position to hold, IMO.
We are ALL now in the same game.
That “Event Video” practitioner servicing the upper end is probably shooting RED and doing the same “cinematic grading” you are.
That Hall H show was the size of 5 full size movie screens easily.
Somewhere there’s a “Promotion” going on today that has a budget that likely dwarfs any of our current projects.
These tools are no longer the exclusive province of one “Class” of producer.
Everybody’s using them for everything. Across all industries and enterprise types.
All that matters is the budget.
FWIW.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Bill Davis] “Everybody’s using them for everything. Across all industries and enterprise types.
All that matters is the budget.”I would certainly agree with that. I’ve done quite a lot of video support for elaborate corporate events. The hardware used and presentation technology deployed is more than you see in any broadcast environment, including at the network level. Not to mention the extensive production involved leading up to the event, in order to produce the content presented on stage.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Bill Davis] “That Hall H show was the size of 5 full size movie screens easily. Somewhere there’s a “Promotion” going on today that has a budget that likely dwarfs any of our current projects. These tools are no longer the exclusive province of one “Class” of producer. Everybody’s using them for everything. Across all industries and enterprise types.”
[Oliver Peters] “I would certainly agree with that. I’ve done quite a lot of video support for elaborate corporate events. The hardware used and presentation technology deployed is more than you see in any broadcast environment, including at the network level. Not to mention the extensive production involved leading up to the event, in order to produce the content presented on stage.”
This is exactly what we do at Keen Live. These productions are very demanding, both technically and creatively.
Resolution matters a lot to us. 4K or 8K may not matter on a 70″ display in your living room, but every pixel counts when they’re spread over a 200′ piece of scenery.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn]
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