-
PDW-700 vs HPX 2000 -Workflow, cost of operation over time.
-
“…as it will get harder and harder to source laptops with PCMCIA slots.”
You didn’t read my post.
The fact is, like XDCAM, most P2 users are doing:
– direct to camera hard drive dumps of data – running at 25-30MB/sec speeds via Firewire
– transfering direct from camera, like XDCAM, via Firewire or USB 2.0
– using VTR’s or drives, like XDCAM to transfer data.NONE of these methods use a PCMCIA slot in a computer. ALL of the above methods are just as fast, and XDCAM is SHARING those methods.
P2 isn’t about the PC card. XDCAM isn’t completely “about” the blu-ray disc. It’s about recording directly to a storage medium that is not tape, and moving that data fast to a NLE.
Just like Sony, Panasonic is pushing using their devices (VTR’s, camera cable connections, and external drive devices) to move data, not Desktop/Laptop slots.
I don’t care which brand I use. I know that both XDCAM and P2 give me a way to acquire without tape, and BOTH allow me to move that data quickly to an NLE.
Again, look above – you are not required to use a PCMCIA slot in a laptop.
Videographer/Editor
Creative Director
Union Digital, Inc.
https://www.uniondigitalmedia.com -
Chris I agree that P2 doesn’t force you to have to use a PCMCIA slot but with solid state media on a long location shoot if you don’t have a PCMCIA slot you must either tie up the camera or have some additional hardware. The P2 and XDCAM workflows while both file based could not be more different.
XDCAM HD users simply pop a fresh disc into the camera when they need more storage. They then choose when and where to load the footage onto the edit suite. That may be the day of the shoot, 6 months, 6 years down the line. No need to tie up the camera just to clear off space on the recording media and certainly no need to ever have to do this on location. If working for a third party you just hand the discs over at the end of the shoot.
A solid state media user (until such time as the media cost comes way down) must dump the material from the card to another storage media much more frequently, often on location during a shoot. This either ties up the camera, a deck OR a computer with the appropriate slot. If you client needs the rushes at the end of the shoot in most cases some kind of dump will need to be done. If your laptop has the correct slot you can dump the footage while you continue to shoot saving everyone time.
Now you may shoot in a manner that means you never fill all your cards so for you this may not be an issue, but many many users will find themselves in situations where they will need to perform dumps/backups in the field. I can assure you it is far easier and quicker to bung a memory card into a slot on a laptop while bouncing down a dirt road in a 4×4, rolling around in a boat at sea or while killing time on a long haul flight than it is to have to get out the camera and it’s batteries and faf around with cables. Additionally the Express card PCI bus permit speeds around 800mb/s or 100MB/sec so transfers are 3 to 4 times faster than P2 will ever be.
If you have ever tried an SxS transfer you will know it is 4 times faster that P2. Just imagine popping a single 16Gb SxS cardwith 50 mins of footage into a MacBook pro and 8 minutes later your editing. P2 will never be able to do that and there is no way it can be upgraded to do that. Memory devices are getting faster and faster but P2 is stuck with an interface that was at it’s limit 4 years ago.
XDCAM HD users don’t ever have to worry about this, they just buy more discs.
-
On XDCAM shoots, I’ve done exactly as you specified. It’s a great workflow.
I still disagree on P2. On P2 shoots, we have at least 4 16GB cards on site. That allows us to have a PA use a AG-HPG10 to preview shots with the client on a monitor, and immediately transfer that card to an external hard drive, which we then create a backup of. The shoot never slows down, the client gets instant shot checks and feedback, and at the end of the shoot day, the client leaves with a hard drive of all footage, and we have a backup as well. Goes to the NLE, and they are off and editing.
Just as efficient, and the shoot never stops.
On an XDCAM shoot, we also have a deck for video village, and the client can check shots there as well. At the end of the day, we hand them the disc, and we’re done. However, we usually dump the data on shoot to a hard drive as well, so there is another copy.
Both workflows are great, I just think that you’re short-sighting P2. Just as good and valuable, and we’ve had great success with both, and amazing pictures from both.
Then again, we’re still archaic. We still do a third of our shoots on the F900. HDCAM is still a great format, and the F900 is one of our favorite cameras. Tape is still part of our workflow for a while.
Now the Red…we just did a Blimpie spot on the Red. Talk about gorgeous pictures on that one…
Videographer/Editor
Creative Director
Union Digital, Inc.
https://www.uniondigitalmedia.com -
Chris, I’m happy that P2 works for you on your shoots when you have a PA and extra gear to Data Wrangle for you. But there will be many others working in different sectors often as one-man-bands that won’t have a PA or video village to call upon.
Consider a wildlife cameraman sitting alone in a hide running for many hours trying to catch that one vital moment. Someone covering a conference shooting for 8 hours a day almost non-stop on a low budget corporate shoot, a cameraman covering a road trip crossing countries or continents with little or no outside support, a cameraman covering a wedding or other day long event. In these situations speed and ease of backup is crucially important.
By your own admission you tell us that you have to use extra specialized equipment and another person to manage your data. I’m not sure that everone would regard the need to have extra equipment and a person on set to manage data as efficient! With XDCAM HD you don’t need that extra person, as I keep saying an you acknowledge you just pop in a fresh disc. If you were shooting with an XDCAM EX you would have a $500 generic laptop with a $50 software application. Slip the card in the express card slot, the card gets copied, and the backup is verified all at 8x realtime completely automatically.
So while P2 may well perfectly suite you particular style of shooting it will not suite everyone, that is not being short sighted, just comments born out of my personal experience with a broad range of formats and work flows.
-
Alister,
[Alister Chapman] “Additionally the Express card PCI bus permit speeds around 800mb/s or 100MB/sec so transfers are 3 to 4 times faster than P2 will ever be.”
Just a technical point as I don’t want to get in the middle of defending one or the other. The Express card slot isn’t that tremendously faster than a PCMCIA slot. The biggest determinant of speed of offload is the fact that XDCAM HD is a 35mbps codec whereas DVCPro HD is a 100mbps codec, ergo, the XDCAM codec, all other things being equal will offload almost 3 times as fast. It’s more like 4 times as fast because of the somewhat increased speed of the Express card slot.
Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit* -
That’s not at all correct. The PCIe Express card interface is nearly 5 times faster than PCMCIA.
The SxS cards use the PCIe portion of the express card interface. The Express card slot has two distinct interfaces, one is in effect USB 2 and offers upto 800Mbps while the PCIe interface offers serial transfer that in theory can go up to 2.5Gbps. SxS cards use the 2.5Gbps interface, so there is plenty of scope for speed improvements. The most the old parallel PCMCIA can achieve is around 640Mbps. Certainly the fact that XDCAM files are smaller than P2 files helps the overall through put. But as I keep saying P2 can go no faster, while SxS has plenty of un touched headroom.
-
Alister,
[Alister Chapman] “That’s not at all correct.”
I stand corrected. In Theory. (g) What users are experiencing in practical usage is largely a difference in offload speed attributable to the different sizes of the files. It may not be the same tomorrow, but it is today. The speed of the cards themselves is also a levening factor. P2 being raided allows it to get the most out of the PCMCIA slot.
Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit* -
Two more cents on this topic: We are intrigued by XDCAM over P2 because XDCAM seems to be the latest greatest technology that best emulates our current tape-based workflow on location. On 85% of our shoots we hand tapes over to our client, rather than post them ourselves. I like XD because they are just like tapes – we buy them (or they bring them), we fill them with great footage, and the happy client leaves with them to post. This is the reality of the freelance crew workflow. There’s no downloading, or Lacie drives to deal with, or lending out P2 cards. We have both Sony and Panasonic HD cameras, and are very happy with them – so this is a neutral comment – but we are likely placing our bets on XDCAM with our next purchase.
Tom Miller
Big Pictures, Denver
(303) 670-0625http://www.BigPicturesMedia.com
“Award-Winning Camera Crews and Production Services in the Rocky Mountain West”
-
For us it usually comes down to our DP’s choice, and what camera they like for whatever look they want. That’s why we’re pretty much format agnostic. In a given year it’s usually an even percentage between HDCAM, P2, XDCAM and Varicam/DVCPRO HD related shoots and edits. We still touch some SDX-900/DVCPRO50 related material as well. We try to make sure we’ve mastered each format’s workflow as best as possible. We had our first Red shoot for a national spot a month ago, and that was a great learning experience. Now we have to see how much Red will become part of our shoots.
Videographer/Editor
Creative Director
Union Digital, Inc.
https://www.uniondigitalmedia.com -
I attended a Sony and Avid workflow seminar a few weeks ago and got hands-on with the 700, EX3 and EX1 there.
The biggest quality upgrade for the 700 is the processing IMHO. The difference between 12-bit processing and 14-bit processing plus the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:0 (at 50meg) is why this camera is going to be huge.
Also, the EX3 with the framerate/format knob on the side of the camera and the ability to be controlled by CCU (plus interchangable lenses) are big upgrades from the EX1.
John McClary
“The future you can afford”
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up