OT: XDCAM HD or DVC PRO HD

[Donato M. rondinelli]

Wayne,
Are you saying that even though one format is 35mbs & the other is 100 mbs that their both similar quality? The shooters here pushing for XDCAM HD, before I side with them I want to know what I’m getting into.

Everything here is SDI & all the Macs have a Kona cards. We do have tons of legacy DVC Pro 50.

-dMR

[Mark Maness]

You have to keep in mind of each camera’s compression schemes are totally different. They are both equal in quality and features, what it really comes down to is the workflow you are going to use and what picture do you like better. Both cameras shoot a beautiful picture but each have different qualities and that’s what you need to decide.

I would have to say that if you have all of that DVCPRO 50 footage, then I would lean towards the Panasonic for that very reason. The Panasonic’s 1200A deck records HD100 and plays back all of the DVCPRO family including Sony’s DVCAM.

In our facility… we didn’t have that problem so we chose the Sony XDCAM. Its workflow was much better suited to our needs and not having to cue up a tape is real nice.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com

[Mark Maness]

Hey Joel,

Can you tell me why you think DVCPRO HD is better than XDCAM HD? I’m just curious…

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com

[Donato M. rondinelli]

Thanks!
-dMR

[Gary Adcock]

[Wayne Carey] “Can you tell me why you think DVCPRO HD is better than XDCAM HD? I’m just curious…”

I’ve been staying out of this thread, but I need to make a couple of points clear.
Wayne -you cannot match a cameras imager vs a codec as you have in this thread.

XDCam HD
1) uses Mpeg long GOP and currently is limited to 25mbs within Final Cut, it is not a frame based compression so the same type of artifacts found in teh consumer cameras are evident in the “Pro” HDV format.
2) the HDSDI on the camera only delivers 60i footage and there are currently not any tools on the mac that can extract 24p content from any of SONY’s HDV products.
3) it is a 1/2′ imager and only a couple of lenses have been engineered for that specific camera, using lenses designed for 2/3′ chips often show back-focus and scale issues that show up vividly in post.
4) the sharpness and color match Sony’s consumer HDV products, meaning that that ship with the sharpness is set to MAX.
that makes the pictures look great but adds enough edge sharpness to the images that they degrade faster when compressing to DVD or for transmission.

DVCPROHD is not a camera it is a compression format.

1) it’s legacy is from the 2/3″ chip VARICAM one of the first digital cinema cameras that support film rec and variable speeds, and has an entire post workflow built around it thanks to apple.
2) DVCPROHD as a compressor is currently used in 4 cameras vs 2 for Sony’s Pro HDV format. 3 of the 4 Panasonic cameras use 2/3′ chips (and all with full 1280×720 rasters)- only the hvx200 does not meet that criteria.
3) DVCPROHD is a less compressed format than any of the HDV variants, it maintains a 4:2:2 color space and is easily usable within FCP-All of the other HDV camera manufacturers recommend using DVCPROHD instead of HDV for editing on the mac. SONY is the lone holdout to stay in HDV. Even though it does not offer the 35mbs HDV variant so far and forces everyone except those on the most current machines to render their HDV content insensately.
4) more realtime effects when using DVCPROHD rather than HDV.
5) intraframe compression vs interframe compression. I prefer that every frame is compressed unto itself, and not dependent on the info in the frames surrounding it.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL

[Joel Strickland]

Wayne,

I’m not sure that I could put it any better than Gary.

Joel

Joel Strickland HD Productions

[Mark Maness]

I agree with Gary completely! Sometimes I just trouble putting into words what I mean. I just wanted to get someone elses opinion on this.

Gary is completely correct! XDCAM HD is a shooting format whereas DVCPRO HD is a compression format.

I agree that the XDCAM HD cameras need tweakin to make sharpness softer, but that’s something that Sony feels is important instead of letting the user decide that. Just like Sony’s stance that the white levels for a camera is 110 IRE, not 100. As for the 24p problem, Sony’s XDCAM HD deck – PDW-F70 – has a pull down option on the output so you can capture using any codec. But as for native 24p…. I haven’t tried it yet. We just got our equipment a cople of weeks ago and haven’t had time to really play with thoroughly.

As for HDV vs. DVCPRO HD… I never edit in HDV! That is the most awful editing one can do in FCP. So, until Sony gets full support for XDCAM HD, I’ll edit in DVCPRO HD. Besides, I like the small file sizes as compared to Uncompressed.

And please keep something in mind… HDV is a transport stream, not an edit stream. Sony will tell you this if you ask. Its always better to convert to an edit stream to work and that’s where DVCPRO HD comes in.

By the way, Gary… I always look forward to your interjections in these threads. It’s nice to get an honest and knowledgeable opinion.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com

[Gary Adcock]

[Wayne Carey] “By the way, Gary… I always look forward to your interjections in these threads. It’s nice to get an honest and knowledgeable opinion.”

Thanks for the compliment Wayne,

The reality is that each and every person needs to decide for themselves which camera or editing platform they may want to use. Each and every person on this list has different needs, desires and functionality they require for their workflow (or lack of workflow in most cases).

I am finding that many people cannot seem to wrap there heads around the P2 workflow, but I am seeing just as many people not being able to understand Sony’s XDCam Workflow (what do you mean I need to buy a new deck! — the disk’s won’t play in my computer???— however my favorite is “It’s a CineAlta, not HDV.” )

IF you are the one changing you have to decide for yourself which option for camera and post workflow.

I chose the Varicam / Hvx200 /P2 route because of the DVCPROHD workflow.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL

[Blub06]

I asked a Sony rep at a show if this XDCAM and the HD version were in any way HDV and he said they are not, they are using completely different codec

[Gary Adcock]

[Blub06] “Yes, this was a Sony person, if he is lying I guess he feels the truth will never come out. He will be wrong if there are HDV issues with this new format. “

Then you got a really Lame Sony Rep,
Most of the reps are professionals and in my experience none of them would tell anyone something that is so grossly inaccurate. My guess is you got a booth setter that came from one of the consumer divisions.

from Tapeonline

https://www.tapeonline.com/store/XDCAM_FAQ.asp

Q: Does 25 Mbps XDCAM HD recording use the same compression as HDV 1080i recording?
A: Yes. While XDCAM HD recording at 18 and 35 Mbps uses variable bitrate technology, the 25 Mbps alternative uses a fixed bitrate for compatibility with HDV 1080i editors and recorders. Basically the only difference is that HDV editors use Transport Stream (TS) and XDCAM HD uses Elementary Stream (ES). Decks can be connected directly to HDV 1080i recorders, camcorders and compatible NLEs, via the i.LINK