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OT: Digital Heaven SpeedScriber is now in beta
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[Craig Seeman] “FCPX the problem here is that…”
Where is this post from?
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[Robin S. Kurz] “[Craig Seeman] “FCPX the problem here is that…”
Where is this post from?”
Discussing issue with Martin from Digital Heaven. While he can get it to work with PPro CC (probably much like Adobe’s abandoned implementation) he can’t get it to work with FCPX. Searching in FCPX doesn’t find the specific keyword range, only the clip itself.
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[Craig Seeman] “he can’t get it to work with FCPX. Searching in FCPX doesn’t find the specific keyword range, only the clip itself.”
Exactly. Like I said, markers cannot be searched (in that way). But that’s nothing new, it’s been that way since day one. There’s nothing “flawed” about it, it’s just the way it works! I’m surprised that he’s surprised. And really, if you think about it, how is that supposed to pan out with the way X does markers? They mark a frame, so what does he expect to see when entering a search term? A bunch of single frames?? 😀 They’re also not like the markers in 7 where you could make marker ranges. That’s what favorites are for! If you had both, that would be redundant. I could have told him that he’d be getting exactly what he is getting way ahead of time. If anything, his approach is “flawed”, since he seems to be expecting it to work like 7 or PPro. The ol’ trying to make it work the way you want, instead of the way it does. 😉
So if you ask me, simply flip the concept over to using named FAVORITES and you not only get what you’re looking for, but it’s even much better than what you’re getting under PPro. The only drawback that I can think of is that you can’t search for favorites in the timeline index.
I’ve signed up for the beta, so maybe I can tell him myself at some point. 😉
– RK
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I’m not sure Favorites would work any better. Note that searching for a word simply shows the entire clip and not just the specific Favorites, Keyword Ranges, Markers, that contain the word. That’s the issue.
If the Favorites were named and you searched for a word, do you believe ONLY those Favorites would show. Please do explain.
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[Craig Seeman] “If the Favorites were named and you searched for a word, do you believe ONLY those Favorites would show. Please do explain.”
I guess you’re not following the entire thread, because I already did. 😉 And I don’t believe so, I know so. I have been doing it like that for dialog for years because markers and keywords didn’t cut it (no pun intended). Again, which is also why I don’t get why people insist on using keyword ranges and think it’s a good idea in this context. Horrible idea imho.
As I explained before, you would apply everything as named favorites, then, and this is obviously key, you simply switch the event clip filtering (in filmstrip view) to “Favorites”. Enter your search term… bingo. Very easy to test for yourself with random favorites on any given clip!
Spoiler: Yes, ONLY those Favorites (i.e. sections) would show.
Before:
After:
Of course if the search term occurs in multiple favorites, you see multiple clips!
Convinced? 😉 And what’s best about this approach is that you DO NOT have an endless, convoluted and unmanageable amount of keywords in your sidebar, potentially going into the thousands! The absolute deal-breaker for me. With this everything is neatly tucked away in the event window completely out of sight.
And like I said before, the only disadvantages I can see with this is that they can’t overlap (like kw ranges) and aren’t (yet?) searchable in the timeline index. But neither have ever bothered me personally the least.
– RK
P.S. Good luck doing this anywhere as elegantly in PPro or elsewhere. 😛
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Got it. Thanks.
I generally use Favorites for marking my “buy” takes in my Keyword Collections so this should have been a more obvious use to me.Of course this does mean SpeedScriber would have to be able to name the favorites. I’ll mention this to Martin although I’m sure you will as well if you’re on their beta at this point.
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Robin, there’s a couple of problems with this technique.
1. In order to breakout of ‘disclosure triangle hell’, it is necessary to view in filmstrip mode (which is designed for identifying footage visually) but all you can see is the clip name not other textual metadata like the custom favorite name. So if you search for a word “company” in an interview then you have to play through all the results rather than being able to glance down the text and see which one you want.
2. It’s hacking the way that favorites were designed to be used and that makes it too fragile. There’s no overlapping of favorites by design since it’s a binary choice – “is this frame a favorite or not?”. So if we put all the transcript sentences as favorites then you would be unable to use favorites in the normal way because as soon as you do – whooops there go my transcripts for that region!The only workaround I can see is to put all your interview clips into a timeline and then markers CAN be searched in the timeline index and you can matchframe back to the source clip. This is not great (is it possible to have a timeline longer than 24hrs?) and open to human error (“did I remember to add those 40 new source clips to the transcript timeline?”), so I don’t think is really workable.
If anyone wants to see better searching of time-based metadata in FCP, please submit feedback to Apple. The more people that ask for it, the more likely it is to happen.
Martin
Digital Heaven, London UK -
Hey Martin! Thanks for chiming in! 🙂
[Martin Baker] “In order to breakout of ‘disclosure triangle hell’,…”
As opposed to what? Keyword collection hell :-D, as others have implemented elsewhere? I really don’t know what that means, since both a keyword AND a marker would result in the exact same thing in terms of the amount of stuff showing if you flip open a clip’s triangle, no? And how are you going to quickly and easily hide the hundreds if not thousands of keyword collections (that aren’t [easily] searchable outside of the timeline either btw) if you were to use that approach (as others imho unfortunately have)?
[Martin Baker] “it is necessary to view in filmstrip mode (which is designed for identifying footage visually) “
I don’t understand why you figure it is “necessary to view in filmstrip mode”? Like I said, I’ve been doing exactly this for years now and I can use it in either list OR filmstrip.
I only used filmstrip in the example because that’s what I personally prefer. The switch is actually completely redundant (should have left it out), just habit on my part.
[Martin Baker] “but all you can see is the clip name not other textual metadata like the custom favorite name.”
???
If you use it in list view, you can potentially see much more than with any other approach (or NLE)! A simple ⌘A and ⌥→ flips everything OPEN for me if I need that, ⌥← flips everything SHUT again. I even have a NOTES field for each and every favorite individually! Heck, even add a Marker at the beginning of each, too, and go crazy with ITS name and notes, since that (and every other marker in it’s range) will in fact be filtered out along with the favorite! I mean, you have the data and you’re generating the XML, right? So simply use the same information twice or even in an alternate, ancillary way… I dunno. How is this any different, let alone worse, than what it is you have been trying to do with markers (from how I’ve understood it at least)? How is it not in fact far better?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sure would be news to me since I last checked that you can potentially add a note to each individual FRAME if you wanted in e.g. Premiere. How about Avid? Not that I’d even want to… 😀
[Martin Baker] “So if you search for a word “company” in an interview then you have to play through all the results rather than being able to glance down the text and see which one you want.”
Um… I hope you realize that I only used single words for demonstration purposes, right? 😀 Because as I wrote before, I certainly would NOT appreciate a single word level of detail with audio transcriptions, as others seemed to be suggesting. I have always done it on a sentence or LINE basis for e.g. films I edit. With this I can enter a line and get each and every take of that line presented to me, wherever it may be amongst the three or even four-digit amount of clips I might have and can comfortably watch each one and pick the best. And mind you JUST the part I’m looking for. It won’t play through into other parts. Not sure how you’re going to avoid that using markers, that is assuming searching markers were actually possible as you propose. It’s just plain brilliant imho. Just unfortunately a LOT of work ahead of time as it stands.
Oh and BTW: getting the DURATION of e.g. the marked sentence or line to compare it to other takes for example is also a huge help for me in many cases! How are you going to do that with markers? Exactly. You can’t. 🙁
[Martin Baker] “It’s hacking the way that favorites were designed to be used”
I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to explain to me how a) what I describe can somehow be hacking? and b) how exactly you think favorites “were designed to be used”? I’ve heard that argument before and have no idea what it means. Because for me “hacking” suggests I’m changing something or introducing behavior or options that were not meant to be there. But I am not doing any of that. I define favorites, I name them, I filter them, I search them. Which part of that is “hacking” and NOT by design? Unless of course you want to take its name literally and not dare allow anything that can’t be considered an actual and “honest favorite“, which would of course be pretty silly imho. How are they not a new and improved version of extended markers from FCP 7?
[Martin Baker] “So if we put all the transcript sentences as favorites then you would be unable to use favorites in the normal way because as soon as you do – whooops there go my transcripts for that region!”
I don’t get it. Why would I transcribe anything that I don’t consider potentially useable, therefor essentially A FAVORITE, even if it’s not actually marked as such? That strikes me as highly illogical, especially when I have to pay for every additional minute I’m getting transcribed. I obviously make my selects first (to also e.g. REJECT portions such as slates, false takes etc. etc.) THEN transcribe what’s left. And I in fact have a keyword collection as well for those selects. Heck, call that KC “Favorites” if you like. In my case it will be e.g. the scene number.
[Martin Baker] “The only workaround I can see is to put all your interview clips into a timeline and then markers CAN be searched in the timeline index”
I think you may have a much too technical, less practical approach. Add the marker as I describe above (that you’ve been wanting to add from the get go anyway from what I understand), and tell me how that would not only offer you the best of both worlds and give you what it is you are looking for, but also a plethora of additional options and possibilities that, from what I’ve seen, are far above and beyond what you can do elsewhere?
[Martin Baker] “If anyone wants to see better searching of time-based metadata in FCP”
Well, I’m personally not missing anything… aside from maybe a way (a service? a software? :-P) to save me the extremely tedious task of transcribing i.e. renaming my favorites. 😉
– RK
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Oh my goodness Robin… OK deep breath… I will keep this as short as I can.
1. I totally agree with you that keywords are not a good fit for transcripts. The screenshots I sent to Craig DO use keywords but that was from a previous experiment and the problems are exactly the same when using markers or favorites.
2. I said “it is necessary to view in filmstrip mode” because that’s the ONLY way you can see matching results without having to twirl down every single freaking disclosure triangle. In list view, even if you use your keyboard shortcuts to open all the triangles the bigger problem is that you still can’t see which marker/keyword/favorite it matches. I thought I made that problem very clear in the “step 2” screenshot I sent to Craig which he posted in this thread.
3. I am certainly not suggesting using single words as metadata. It works in Premiere because it has a dedicated speech panel, it won’t work in FCP. Like I said in the original email to Craig, I am suggesting using one marker per sentence.
4. Just because something is transcribed doesn’t follow that it should be a favorite! That’s a weird concept. Let’s take a documentary project as an example. You are clearly going to want to use some lines and not others. So by using favorites for transcripts, you’re stopping editors from manually creating any favorites on clips that have transcripts, because if they do, they will lose the transcript data. I’m not sure I can make the problem with this technique any clearer than that.
5. The bottom line is that FCP only filters CLIPS that contain a search term. It does not filter time-based metadata (markers, keyword ranges, favorites) within clips. This is the problem.
Martin
Digital Heaven, London UK -
Oh my goodness Martin… talk about talking completely past each other. 😉
[Martin Baker] “I totally agree with you that keywords are not a good fit for transcripts.”
Hooray! So at least we’re cool on that part. No please go tell e.g. Philip H. 😀
[Martin Baker] “and the problems are exactly the same when using markers or favorites.”
Damn. It was going so well. 😛
No, they’re not. Which is why I am even raising the point and have been to begin with. But somehow…[Martin Baker] “In list view, even if you use your keyboard shortcuts to open all the triangles the bigger problem is that you still can’t see which marker/keyword/favorite it matches.”
Nope, as I would have thought was obvious from my screenshots. I mean… if they were the same as you say, how could I have made that screenshot? No offense, but you need to read what I wrote. Take another look at what I described above… then look at your screenshot… what’s wrong with this picture?
Spoiler: Your mistake is that you are not filtering by favorites! That is, as I described, obviously the number one essential step. Merely the part about switching to filmstrip was superfluous. Making an otherwise simple concept less clear I guess, my bad. Without that it of course can’t work, no!
Quote:
[Robin S. Kurz] “… you simply switch the event clip filtering (in filmstrip view) to “Favorites”. Enter your search term… bingo. “[Martin Baker] “I am certainly not suggesting using single words as metadata.”
Yes, I know that you weren’t. 🙂
[Martin Baker] “I am suggesting using one marker per sentence.”
Perfect! Do as I describe above, be it with JUST a favorite or with a favorite AND a marker at the beginning (for the sake of searching in the timeline later), both named identically or not, up to you, then you will in fact get exactly what you are looking for. Assuming you are filtering correctly. My exact point this whole time.
[Martin Baker] “Just because something is transcribed doesn’t follow that it should be a favorite! That’s a weird concept.”
😀 Just because it’s called a “favorite”? How is a favorite ultimately anything but “Extended Marker” by another name?? A lot of people can’t get upset enough about “Project” and “Event” either. So? That doesn’t change what the are, how they work, and how they are or can be used. Nothing but silly semantics if you ask me.
[Martin Baker] “you’re stopping editors from manually creating any favorites on clips that have transcripts”
Again, I simply use A KEYWORD for anything else. Call it “Favorites” if you want, put it on position 1, hit CTRL-1 whenever you want a “favorite”, done! I’ve have been doing exactly that for AGES now and can’t see anything truly relevant why one couldn’t or shouldn’t do it that way. Especially in this context. No idea how that’s much of “a price to pay” if any at all. Unless of course semantics are for some reason more relevant than anything else.
Seriously, if I can rename them and search for them and do just that, how and why is that somehow a “hack” or “weird”?? That honestly doesn’t make logical sense to me. For me that’s like saying you can’t “Preview” a clip in the “Canvas” because it’s not a “Preview” window it’s a canvas! That’s weird!
[Martin Baker] “It does not filter time-based metadata”
CTRL-F… done! I’m not sure how I can make this technique any clearer than that. ;-))
– RK
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