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Olympics Editing (not FCP-X)
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[Herb Sevush] “The difference is that editing is not an assembly line process, where physical activities are reproduced over and over again at very quick intervals. The percentage of time saving, if at all, by adding a click here or there is often beneath effective notice in these type of situations. Any system that can smoothly show you the material at high speed and then immediately slow down to near real time speed will work just about as well as another.”
Search for footage (forget metadata for now, let’s call this high-speed shuttling).
Evaluate source footage (we found something while shuttling, let’s jog and make sure it’s what we want).
Reduce source footage to selection for edit.
Optionally evaluate record footage.
Cut.
Optionally review cut in context (maybe NLEs need preview buttons).
Optionally trim or rearrange edits.
These are the mechanics of editing (to say nothing of actually structuring the narrative), and they are repeated over and over. I absolutely think there are opportunities for small improvements in these tasks to compound.
The difference of a the time it takes to click a mouse here or there is not as large as the difference gained by the skimmer’s smoother, more fluid operation or its ability to be used anywhere in the application without any switch in context.
Now I do agree with you that I can’t say what (if any) the time savings are. I haven’t measured, so I don’t know — maybe the skimmer’s time savings aren’t significant. Maybe they’re negligible, or maybe they’re even negative. Even if that’s the case, though, then its frustration savings must be high to have so many convinced that it feels so much faster.
[Herb Sevush] “This entire sub thread is based on Steve’s assertion about X’s superiority in preparing selects. “
I read it differently:
[Steve Connor] “The skimmer is simply the fastest way to get through lots of footage on any NLE that exists today. It’s my favourite feature in FCPX”
For me, dealing with a lot of footage is not done once selects are made (maybe I’m not selective enough). It continues through the edit through constant re-review of selects, and that’s where I think the skimmer pays dividends through the whole edit.
[Herb Sevush] “However it still irks me when people make unsubstantiated absolutest statements, whether it was Jerry Hoffman last week or Steve today.”
Fair — but I wouldn’t compare Steve’s assertion to Jerry’s. Steve’s claim is task-specific and falsifiable; Jerry’s claim was practically unlimited in scope and false on its face.
But let’s broaden the conversation back up. People using both FCPX and Pr often make the claim that their new NLE is faster than FCP7. I can’t think of a good way to measure that without relying on someone’s experience and perception, since every editor is different, every project is different, and no one person can meaningfully repeat the same project on two systems.
How can we legitimately talk about speed?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
Be interesting to see how long FCP7 kicks along with zero development.
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[Walter Soyka] “How can we legitimately talk about speed?”
It’s hard to measure.
I have found that the people that have really dug in to X and like it, then go back to FCP7 say things like ‘it feels like a step backwards. Things just go faster in X’.
I don’t think that a person can compare the two until they have really really tried FCPX. They, of course, have to like how FCPX works and see it as a strength. If a person doesn’t like FCPX’s methods, of course it’s not going to be faster as it doesn’t work for them.
I wouldn’t be trying FCPX if I didn’t see it’s strengths as an advantage to my particular way of working.
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[Trevor Asquerthian] “Be interesting to see how long FCP7 kicks along with zero development.”
I think it will be like Avid. There are the stories of people still using Avid on OS9/G4s.
Why? Because it still works and is stable.
FCP7 will have some of that, too.
Jeremy
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[Jeremy Garchow] “You can adjust the zoom level in filmstrip view. It’s just like any other NLE in that regard.”
Sorry. My fault. I wasn’t clear.
I, of course, get the zooming in. What I should have said was this:
When I put a whole show into a timeline, and make the entire show visible within the time line, and then skim across I find that I get a fairly good sampling of what is there, without going frame by frame. It seems to sample every ten or twenty or even thirty frames, depending on how fast I’m moving across it. Then, when in the ballpark, I zoom in and get frame accuracy. I can do this in MC and Pr, as well. (In fact, its one of the areas where MC excels because it has the source timeline) This is what I’m trying to compare my experience to.
I’m in a place, right now, where I can’t just pop X open and check it out, so I’m asking this and the above question from memory–always a dangerous adventure–and, I’m genuinely asking, not making a comparison. I abandoned X, at the time, for very different reasons, so I never really worked out my fumbling with the skimmer on very long clips.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “… I make bins of selects. Then, I usually make a sequence for each bin and string out all of those clips for that bin. I then copy and paste from the selects sequences to the main “edit” sequence which will eventually become the finished sequence. Depending on the project, this means I can have a lot of sequences open at any given time.”
Jeremy,
I’m going to add to my already tenuous categories, and call this “hybrid”.
[Jeremy Garchow] “FCPX does this for me with much less clicking, with greater speed, and I don’t have to constantly switch back and forth between sequences. … To me, it is the best of both worlds. It allows for accurate searching, and it also allows for visual footage discovery without the database feel.”
I find these kinds of posts much more interesting and constructive than claims of “fastest NLE”.
First, because I’m interested to know how other people work.
Second, because I’m not sure when “fast” became the primary criterion for NLEs. Generally when software is described as fast, people are referring to a specific task, or a specific process which is taxing on the hardware. “Fast” can mean responsive (in terms of UI), efficient in terms of processing (or rendering), conducive to organization etc. When you get to the more workflow or process based assessments however, you’re into pretty specific (and often divergent and subjective) needs depending on the kinds of production and editing involved.
“Flexible” is another way of assessing NLEs.
Meeting the needs of a specific workflow is another.
Subjective appeal is another.
Steve Connor may have more charts for those (though he does seem restricted to FCP7 and FCPX).
I’m trying to imagine a conversation between an editor and a filmmaker where the editor boasts of his or her “faster” NLE; I can’t imagine doing this myself.
Franz.
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[Walter Soyka] “I read it differently:”
I guess we should leave it to Steve to clarify what he meant.
[Walter Soyka] “How can we legitimately talk about speed?”
Speed in editing can mean many things, some of them measurable – latency when using the keyboard, speed of rendering, speed of importing codecs, time to open complex projects. For instance many speak of Edius as being the fastest editor out there, and then talk about most of the functions just mentioned as reasons.
When talking about more complex editing operations speed often has to do with UI functions – layout and efficiency – for instance PPro just got “faster” by simplifying it’s UI. It also has to do with capabilities – if you need to export to an external program to get something done than an editor that can handle that internally will probably be faster.
But beyond that I don’t think speed is a measurable difference between NLE’s. Much of what speed is thought to be has to do with workflow considerations and operator preferences. For any given editor my guess is that different NLEs would be faster for different jobs and workflows. To claim that Avid or Legend or X is “faster” overall is nonsensical.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
It’s fun for sure.
What I find amusing is that generally, the people who “push back” against X being faster – are those who don’t operate it regularly.
Everyone I know who’s a big X fan now – at least here – have used Legacy for a long time as well. So they have a basis to compare.
Those who are still pushing back against it – appear to be those who haven’t gone through the learning curve as thoroughly.
Everyone knows I’m just a dumb a zealot. But taking me off the field. How do you cope with the fact that, the guys who are popping up singing X’s praises now, are increasingly long time editors with lots of comparative experience.
Essentially, if you’re trying to decide how good competing brands of cars are – don’t you give slightly more weight to the opinions of those who have driven BOTH?
Just sayin’
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “I’m trying to imagine a conversation between an editor and a filmmaker where the editor boasts of his or her “faster” NLE”
In a newsroom setting it happens all the time, on a feature film, never.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Franz Bieberkopf] ” find these kinds of posts much more interesting and constructive than claims of “fastest NLE”.
“I believe my subjective claim was
“The skimmer is simply the fastest way to get through lots of footage on any NLE that exists today”
I didn’t say that FCPX is the fastest NLE that exists today.
Although it is 🙂 (add pinch of salt)
Steve Connor
“The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel”
Adrenalin Television
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