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New Mac Pro
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[Walter Soyka] “The point is this: on the PC side, I know that as long as someone who has money wants a workstation, someone who wants to make some money will build one and sell it to them. Apple thinks different.”
Yeah, that was my point- We the Internet all assume Apple will get bored and take its ball and go home, while everyone else would take a real hit from dropping products they sell thousands of. They killed the Xserve because of low sales, so now any Mac that doesn’t sell in seven figure quantities is a FUD magnet.
I’m really looking forward to finding out what has really been going on inside One Infinite Loop come Monday.
Best,
Andy -
[Jeremy Garchow] “We have one dedicated Windows machine here, and now a bootcamped windows 7 MBP. Installing Windows was one of the most frustrating things I have done with an OS in a long time. Bootcamp (of course) was really easy, the rest was terrible. Many many downloading of updates that I have no idea if they are legit or not. The documentation, or instructions are very sparse. Managing DLLs seems like a kludge, reporting (crash reports) aren’t as helpful, and the whole system seems to go down when a crash happens, unlike the Mac where a program might go down.”
If you weren’t rolling your own Windows machine on a BootCamp system, you could have called your vendor for support and gotten a fix or a replacement.
While I respect your experience, I don’t think it’s typical. I’ve installed Windows on 5 Macs via BootCamp without sketchy downloads or managing DLLs. It just worked.
I’ve also had hardware and software nightmares on PowerMac G3s, PowerMac G4s, PowerMac G5s, and Mac Pros. I’ve had other systems per the above that worked beautifully.
Computers are complicated, and both Macs and PCs are liable to experience issues that will cost you serious hair.
Heck, my iPad randomly rebooted on me yesterday, and sometimes I can’t open any applications on it unless I go the app store, download an update or new app, and try again.
[Jeremy Garchow] “The developers I talk to seem to think that MacOS is a “superior” OS. It also makes their jobs easier. We all rely on developers whether we want to admit it or not.”
And I’ve talked to developers (admittedly in my little niche) who struggle developing for OS X, because it’s a moving target.
You’d think that writing a media server on a Mac would be a no brainer, but media server developers almost universally prefer Windows because the graphics support is both better and broader, because the APIs are more stable, requiring less internal reworking and freeing up developer time to focus on new features, and because they feel less paranoid that a freaking iTunes update will break their application.
Others also prefer that they can turn their apps into appliances with bundled hardware and an embedded OS, but that’s probably too niche for our conversation here.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Microsoft, it seems, is making a business decision with Windows 8.”
I agree, but I also think the impact to everyday desktop/workstation users is being way overstated. It’s like if (when?) Apple makes Launchpad the default interface on Macs instead of Finder.
[Jeremy Garchow] “There’s plenty of choices including a vast open source network if that is really your cup of tea, but none of these technology companies are standing still. Just as we are forced to adapt, so are they. It is all changing whether we like it or not.”
Totally agreed. Volatility is up, up, up — which is part of my argument as to why it’s better to be cross-platform if you can. You get all the benefits of both platforms, and you can use that to minimize the risks on either one.
Again, not the right choice for everyone — and I do believe you when you say it’s not the right choice for you — but it has absolutely been the right choice for me, and I think it’s worth it for others in our situations to consider.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Jim Wiseman] “But revenue doesn’t necessarily correlate with profit. Apotheker thought PC’s were not generating enough to hold on to. But now he is gone.”
Current management disagrees.
You are making an argument for why Apple might have ditched the Mac Pro. Profitable, but too small to be worthwhile — both in revenue and profit.
[Jim Wiseman] “Apple has the profit side going strong. Why? People really want their products and OSX.”
And where is that profit coming from? Not the computer we’re talking about in this thread…
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Andrew Richards] “Yeah, that was my point- We the Internet all assume Apple will get bored and take its ball and go home, while everyone else would take a real hit from dropping products they sell thousands of. They killed the Xserve because of low sales, so now any Mac that doesn’t sell in seven figure quantities is a FUD magnet.”
Apple makes already volatile markets more volatile still. It’s fun as long as the surprises are all good. For me, it’s not just a question of whether Apple will or will not drop big Macs and MBPs– it’s the fact that they can, any time that they want. Building a business on Apple today feels like standing on a trap door.
It would literally kill some other vendors to stop selling sizzle core beast computers, so you can be pretty sure they’ll continue out of their own self interest.
Adam Smith would buy an iPad, but he’d also buy a PC.
[Andrew Richards] “I’m really looking forward to finding out what has really been going on inside One Infinite Loop come Monday.”
Absolutely!
I’m really not anti-Apple, and I wouldn’t even go so far to suggest they don’t intend to continue support professionals. I do think it’s clear that they’d don’t fully understand or deeply care about their needs, though, and I’m frankly a bit surprised at the resistance here to the idea of hedging the bet.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Walter Soyka] “Apple has not innovated workstation design in a decade.”
Which is why there’s been no concern until now. With the advent of Thunderbolt people were anticipating some action on Apple’s part whether EOL (and not doing so on their part should have meant something) or a new design. I think the article that Andrew links to in the new thread explains the challenges. Apple is not inclined to announce new products in advance especially if they involve new case designs. They also don’t announce minor updates. The sum equals no announcements either way for what its worth. Each with different reasons though.
[Walter Soyka] “Do you thinking sharing a little more information would be a bad thing? If they made that Xeon announcement, they could still have had their swirling, demand-creating rumors, but we could have had a little reassurance that the future wasn’t all consumer class hardware, all the time.”
That would have been my preference. Perhaps they were concerned about eating further into the minuscule MacPro purchases with the delayed purchases that would have caused. I can see some arguing that, given the low sales, what’s the concern.
[Walter Soyka] “Apple chooses to treat the professional market the same way they treat the consumer market. That’s their choice.”
I don’t think they differentiate. That may well be a problem some see in their business model but in the “we just produce what we believe is the best product” vein, they have no separate consumer and professional business model. Of course some would say they should.
I don’t see it as a problem personally and didn’t see it as an issue many years back when I was part of a facility’s decision making process. Maybe that’s because I’m inclined not to trust any advanced announcements anyway. There’s just too many holes in such announcements to really make long term decisions on, IMHO.
The only thing I can see a concern with is the sudden EOL of a product without any time to work out a transition plan as happened with FCP7. To assume that was going to happen with Xeon processor Macs is . . . well . . . an assumption.
Apple’s handling of the MacPro turns out to be no different than what they’ve done in the past.
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“And where is that profit coming from? Not the computer we’re talking about in this thread…”
See my previous post. The Mac Pro is making a profit and has all the reasons I listed to remain viable. The fact that they are VERY profitable in the consumer to mid range market means they can easily afford to maintain a Pro presence that makes money on it’s own. i.e., Apple will be around for quite a while, and in my opinion will still make a Pro machine(s).
Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17″ 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe -
[Walter Soyka] “If you weren’t rolling your own Windows machine on a BootCamp system, you could have called your vendor for support and gotten a fix or a replacement. “
For an OS install? Yeeps.
Our dedicated Windows box does have support, thankfully. It’s a much more important and therefore more complex machine.
[Walter Soyka] “I agree, but I also think the impact to everyday desktop/workstation users is being way overstated. It’s like if (when?) Apple makes Launchpad the default interface on Macs instead of Finder.”
Overstated? Interesting. So when MSoft makes a big decision about the future and it’s effect on users isn’t crystal clear, it’s overstated, but when Apple has said nothing but “we care about Pro video users”, obviously has been waiting on intel, kept the channel open, decidedly NOT killed the current MacPro, it’s a trap door.
I totally understand the hesitation against Apple, I don’t understand the rhetoric.
I have no idea what what Apple is going to announce next week, but the procs seem ready, the OS rewrites seem to be gaining steam, Nvidia seems to be working with Apple in some capacity, I am just glad we will be able to deal with real live facts after next week.
I do not care who’s right or wrong, I just can’t wait to finally start moving forward, with facts.
I have no idea what it takes to write a “media server” or what context is used in, but as far as appliances, yeah, aren’t those probably based on some sort of Linux?
[Walter Soyka] “Again, not the right choice for everyone — and I do believe you when you say it’s not the right choice for you — but it has absolutely been the right choice for me, and I think it’s worth it for others in our situations to consider.”
I think plenty are, or there’s many that are already cross platform if you look around this forum. It’s not that big of a deal to some, especially if FCPX is the wrong choice.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I do not care who’s right or wrong, I just can’t wait to finally start moving forward, with facts.”
Great Googly Moogly, ain’t that the truth.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Jeremy Garchow] “I have no idea what it takes to write a “media server” or what context is used in, but as far as appliances, yeah, aren’t those probably based on some sort of Linux?”
A media server is a specialized computer for playing back video, sound and images. They often allow multiple layers, blend modes, live effects, and multiple channels. They’re also usually controllable via Ethernet or DMX systems so they can be integrated with the lighting systems for concerts, theatre, and live events.
All stuff I would have thought would be a slam dunk on a Mac. I actually considered suspending my content creation business to develop one last year, but ultimately decided it was too ambitious for me.
[Jeremy Garchow] “So when MSoft makes a big decision about the future and it’s effect on users isn’t crystal clear, it’s overstated, but when Apple has said nothing but “we care about Pro video users”, obviously has been waiting on intel, kept the channel open, decidedly NOT killed the current MacPro, it’s a trap door.”
Ignore the headlines, and look objectively at what Microsoft is doing with Windows 8: they’re adding Metro, which will let you run the exact same apps on your PC as you can on your tablet or phone, and they’ve changing the start button’s behavior. What they aren’t doing is breaking compatibility with Windows 7 or leaving all their customers without any kind of migration pathway.
People are talking about Metro like it’s the end of Windows, when it’s just adding another option for interacting with your computer. Windows 8 will offer new features, but be only superficially different than Windows 7 for many users. If you can switch from FCP Legend to FCPX, I’m pretty sure you can move from the Start menu (which I’m not sure anyone really uses anyway) to Metro.
Is my rhetoric overblown? I guess that depends on how dependent you are on Apple. My point is that many of us don’t realize how dependent we are. You have to trust somebody eventually, and Apple’s actions have set the stage for all the conversation about their trustworthiness. They make their own FUD — it’s just bizarre.
Apple pulled the rug out from under the industry last year, and we’re all still dealing with the aftermath. They can do it again, at any time and for any reason, because they are not accountable to the industry they’re serving.
Of course I agree that it’s not going to kill you if they do. There’s a lot changing, and we can all change our tools if we have to. Work on Macs or HPs or whatever today, and if those solutions are no longer available tomorrow, switch to the next best thing then. Perfectly valid point of view.
I just think any business should take Apple’s single-vendor-serving-an-ancillary-market status into consideration when making purchases. They can serve their own self-interest very well without us, and this is not true of every competitor in the space. It doesn’t mean this should drive the decision for everyone, but why not include it in the decision making?
A few years ago, I spoke in words as hard as cannonballs advocating for Apple. A lot of my Apple advocacy was getting Windows users to see beyond their innane anti-Mac prejudices. I fundamentally believe we are all capable of making our own decisions, but I think we all need good information to do it.
My rants here aside, I’m really not anti-Apple, but I feel like the pro-Apple position is the default for most of us, and it’s well spoken-for. I know it’s hard to believe, but I actually even like a lot of FCPX, both in design and implementation, and I have recommended it twice in separate workflow consulting jobs in the last month.
My point of view on the industry now is that there are really excellent solutions on the Windows platform today — but that they are all but invisible to a lot of Mac users here because of that scary four-paned logo.
Just like FCPX, Windows isn’t the best choice for everyone — but just like FCPX, I think it’s a mistake not to consider it, because it just might work well for you.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
Nicely done, Walter.
I hear your points.
I’m not scared of a single vendor. While there are advantages to having multiple OS computers, there are also disadvantages. I use what’s right, and if it fails, it fails. We were spoiled with FCP Legend, it had a great run.
I’d be hosed if Ae ever went belly up not from finding a “replacement” application, but from a legacy perspective.
As far as media servers, yeah, not sure why a Mac one wouldn’t be compatible, my guess would probably be Quicktime holds it back. Systems like watchout do benefit from Windows speed, no question. But, there are things like ToolsOnAir that seem to be running just fine on mac minis.
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