My New Year’s Resolution to fix Final Cut Pro

[Brandon Kraemer]

Jack,

I am very impressed with this thread, a lot of great ideas and hard work going into a big problem. I am concerned with the solution of this problem and would like to clarify a few things. What exactly does the AJA uncompressed codec govern? Can you tell me if removing this codec disables any capture or outboard display capabilities of the Kona 3 when working in uncompressed 10-bit? Will this affect any aspect of using Color on an outboard monitor with uncompressed 10-bit codecs? We have been working in Uncompressed 10-bit exclusively, will this adversely effect our ability to work with current or legacy projects? My concerns are pretty obvious, I hope they are unfounded.

Brandon Kraemer

[Rafael Amador]

[Brandon Kraemer] “Can you tell me if removing this codec disables any capture or outboard display capabilities of the Kona 3 when working in uncompressed 10-bit?”
If you remove this codec the KONA can still capture and work with the other 10b Unc codecs.
You loose the option of capturing, play and export only this codec.

[Brandon Kraemer] “Will this affect any aspect of using Color on an outboard monitor with uncompressed 10-bit codecs?”
This problem arise when converting YUV stuff to RGB or back. Some people say that is a codec-related issue. It seems that there is also a certain software-related issue.
Color works in RGB, but so far I haven’t experienced any gamma issue with ProRess or 10b Un footage (I wish i could import and export Sheer too, but..APPLE!!)
I don’t think is much necessary that AE works in YUV. There are things that you can achieve in RGB but not in YUV. What is necessary is to resolve the issue of the color space conversion.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Jack Tunnicliffe]

Brandon:

Thanks for your comments. I had many of the same questions for AJA engineering yesterday. What I was told was there was no issue running without the uncompressed codec now. This includes all aspects of your work including capture and your color correction work in terms of color grading, using a calibrated grading monitor. The only time the codec will now be required is when stepping back into legacy projects. Where to draw the line, I do not know, but I would suggest that with any legacy project you simply reinstall the AJA codec as the only issues you’ll have with that project is if you then generate new renders in After Effects using the ProRes or uncompressed 10 bit codec. You would again have to use the v210 coded or remove the AJA QT library component to do your renders in 10 bit uncompressed.

We did some captures in 10 bit uncompressed HD yesterday to check one of our systems. The captures were precise and we round tripped this footage through AE 7 and AE 8 without issue.

Basically what has happened, and don’t hold me to this, it’s an assumption, but I think a pretty good one, is that Final Cut converted to a YUV application about 6 years ago. We saw the introduction of the 10 bit uncompressed codec and it was not a perfect codec. We immediately saw the problems with round trip renders and were concerned. We spoke with AJA engineering and they talked to Apple and out of this came the v210 codec. Really this codec is a mathematical workaround or fix for the problems with the Apple 10 bit codec. Jump ahead to 2008 and you may have remembered release notes for a recent upgrade of Final Cut Studio in which Apple stated that Apple colour systems had been improved. This was probably when we could have removed the AJA codec. Apple had finally fixed the YUV/RGB/YUV conversion issue. We can now safely use the 10 bit uncompressed codec again.

My hat off to AJA engineering. I do not wish to shed any bad light on this team whatsoever. They have been amazingly cooperative. Every time we have an issue, whether it is hardware or software related they come to the rescue. What they did with their codec several years ago was a fix for Apple’s issues and I’m sure they were not told when the codec was altered in QT. You know how non-public Apple can be.

AJA engineering has told me to look for an update in the near future. They gave me no time frame but I’m sure it won’t be too long. These guys don’t drag their heals.

Thanks for joining in on this everyone. Jeremy your hard work was amazing.

Jack Tunnicliffe
Java Post Production

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Jack Tunnicliffe] “Thanks for joining in on this everyone. Jeremy your hard work was amazing. “

My pleasure, Jack. Thanks for the thanks!

Please be aware that you must remove the AJAUncompressedCodec.component BEFORE you launch After Effects, then relaunch After Effects. In automator, you can build a very simple script that will remove and replace the codec. I am no where near a scripter, but I was able to figure out this simple step.

Removing this codec will not effect anything but AJA v210 renders/playback. If you have not used that codec in the past, then the Apple 10bit Uncompressed codec will be a fine workflow for you to continue, Brandon. It won’t hurt you at all.

Back in the v210 days, Apple’s Uncompressed codec worked in 601 space, even at HD resolutions. This presented a problem with color and gamma and everything else. A while ago, APple updated their codec to include 709 and proper conversions as soon as the frame size went over SD. That’s when AJA and Blackmagic started using the Apple Uncompressed codec for HD as the problem was fixed. AS Jack mentioned, they have also seemingly fixed the yuv->rgb->yuv math or at least have gotten closer rounding errors.

Jeremy

[Brandon Kraemer]

Jeremy and friends…

Thanks for your input. I am still experiencing some nasty color shifting despite having removed the codec. The footage in question is P2 (DVCPRO HD 1.33 px aspect) and I guess I am wondering if there is still a DVCPRO color shift issue separate from the AJA induced color shift issue for Uncompressed 10-bit footage.

My test: Export clip from timeline as QT in either Uncompressed 10-bit or DVCPRO HD 60 codec, sent to AE, render out with same codec, import back in. Big color shift, increased chroma, loss of detail. Also tested bringing back in the exported QT and compared to original, same shifts.

If I export as Animation and reimport, I get a big gamma shift and the same apparent chroma shifts.

Any input is most appreciated.

[Jeremy Garchow]

There shouldn’t be.

A couple of caveats, what version of AE? and have you moved the codec before you launch AE?

Also, what are your settings within AE for ‘Project Settings’?

Jeremy

[Brandon Kraemer]

Jeremy,

AE CS3 8.0.2.27. No working space assigned with in AE. I quit both FCP and AE before removing the codec. The real issue is even things I export out of FCP and re-import with out going to AE show the same color shift.

FCP timeline is set to DVCPRO HD Codec. We use a lot of P2 HD stuff, Varicam too. When I can we work Uncompressed HD 10-bit, not so with this footage.

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Brandon Kraemer] “The real issue is even things I export out of FCP and re-import with out going to AE show the same color shift. “

Let me get this straight.

You have DVCPro HD footage, you are exporting how?

[Brandon Kraemer]

I have tried it a few ways…

QT Conversion using…

Native codec (DVCPRO HD)
Uncompressed 10-bit (our usual standard)
Animation

Each way yields color shift. Animation is by far the most noticeable. These color shifts are evident when I reimport the exported clips back into FCP and compare with my source footage.

[Jack Tunnicliffe]

You should not be getting a shift exporting out of Final Cut and re-importing. I’ve never seen that happen before. Could there be a mismatch between your footage and the sequence. What happens if you create a new sequence and drop the footage into the sequence and when FCP asks you, let it change the sequence settings to match the footage. Then export and reimport this footage.