-
Markers or Metadata – The Debate!
-
[David Lawrence] “I think we’re still talking about two totally different approaches. It’s not even a matter of “old” vs “new”. Sure, FCPX’s database-driven approach is new, but even though string-out sequences have been around for awhile, Vashi’s “pancake” method is driven by the unique flexibility of the Pr Pro panel UI.”
New compared to what? FCPX does things a tad bit different but Premiere Pro is an awesome database with editing capabilities just like FCPX. Someone even posted a link to a plugin that gives Premiere Pro a timeline index. We can find content in our timeline without it so I won’t be making use of it but obviously Premiere Pro can do a lot as far as metadata is concerned. You can even add metadata to the markers. That is not to say FCPX and Avid cannot do the same. All the NLE have metadata capabilities. Keep in mind keyword collections was introduced in Adobe’s Bridge 8 years prior to the release of FCPX. Metadata from Bridge can be recalled in Premiere Pro. Premiere, AE Audition, Photoshop can all share metadata and have been able to do so prior to the release of FCPX. Also keep in mind metadata from Adobe’s Story could be shared between several programs as well. I don’t get how FCPX users can brag about how FCPX’s metadata capabilities are anything new. Sure all the NLE will use metadata a tad bit different but Apple/FCPX did not invent metadata although many FCPX users think Apple did just that.
-
[Bill Davis] “curious as to why if Pancaking is such a big efficiency driver – and it appears to have been available for such a long in other NLEs (as this thread implies) – I never heard about anyone using it much until months and months after X was released?
Anyone want to speculate?”
The technique’s been around for a while, But Vashi gave it the name and made it a meme in 2013:
https://vashivisuals.com/adobe-cs6-5-editing-tips-for-music-videos/ (see tip#3)
https://vashivisuals.com/the-pancake-timeline-maximum-limit-is-24-hours/
_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~researchlinkedIn: https://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
vimeo: vimeo.com/album/2271696
web: propaganda.com
facebook: /dlawrence
twitter: @dhl -
[Bill Davis] “Just poking my head back in on the way to dinner, and curious as to why if Pancaking is such a big efficiency driver – and it appears to have been available for such a long in other NLEs (as this thread implies) – I never heard about anyone using it much until months and months after X was released?
Anyone want to speculate?”
I’ll speculate that you weren’t aware of what Premiere could/couldn’t do because you didn’t use it and you didn’t hang out with editors that did use it and discuss with them the finer points of editing with Premiere Pro.
And I think that goes for a lot of editors given that, prior to Apple killing FCP Legend, Premiere’s user base was much smaller (especially in the film, cable/broadcast and web/digital realms) that it is now. I’m not surprised that the editing community at large wasn’t talking about Premiere Pro editing techniques prior to the editing community at large starting to use Premiere Pro. It’s like asking why mainstream movie goers weren’t talking about Christopher Nolan before Batman Begins. Were his previous movies bad, or were mainstream audiences just ignorant to their existence?
Being able to easily stack/pancake timelines is something unique to Premiere Pro given how the GUI works. It makes seeing and referencing multiple timelines much easier than in other NLEs. You could do it with FCP Legend but the GUI really didn’t lend itself to it so I don’t think people really did it (they just tabbed or moused between multiple sequences in the timeline window. I don’t know how you’d do it in Avid because you can only have one sequence open in Avid (the timeline window is either referencing the Record monitor or the Source monitor).
The basic process, editing from one sequence into another, is of course not new or unique to PPro, but the variation/improvement in how PPro lets you do it is what’s really nice. When I first started using FCP (either v2 or v3) being able to have multiple sequences open was amazing to me and one of the biggest things I missed (and still miss) when I use Avid MC. When I first started using PPro and figured out you could stack/pancake multiple sequences it instantly became a feature I missed when working in other NLEs. I’ve always gravitated towards organizing via sequences and markers, and editing between sequences so I’m not surprised how much I enjoy pancake editing in PPro.
EDIT: fixed a few typos (probably more in there).
-
Yes PP can add meta data to clips and whatnot but doing it in FCP X is faster and more efficient. For example: When creating a marker in PP and then dragging it out to make a range, does the video scrub as you drag the range? Um no. I have to guess and then scrub the video itself to find where I want it, and then drag range to that point. Flimsy at best. It is the time it takes to do things in PP that turns me off. Yes there are inefficiencies in FCP X but they don’t seem to affect my workflows as much.
Don’t even get me started about managing tracks.
-
[Brian Seegmiller] “Yes PP can add meta data to clips and whatnot but doing it in FCP X is faster and more efficient. For example: When creating a marker in PP and then dragging it out to make a range, does the video scrub as you drag the range? Um no. I have to guess and then scrub the video itself to find where I want it, and then drag range to that point. Flimsy at best. It is the time it takes to do things in PP that turns me off. Yes there are inefficiencies in FCP X but they don’t seem to affect my workflows as much.”
We can create subclips and add metadata real easy using Premiere Pro. We are not limited to using just markers.
-
[Brian Seegmiller] “Don’t even get me started about managing tracks.
“Did anyone SERIOUSLY have a problem with tracks before FCPX came along? Sure I prefer the magnetic timeline now we have it but I NEVER found myself stressing about track management and I still don’t when I work on other NLE’s, It’s just part of our craft isn’t it?
-
Here are some FCP7 variations from 2010.
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/better-editing-with-custom-screen-layouts/
Look at the third image from the bottom. While not exactly pancake, the side-by-side layout accomplishes the same thing.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
We surely did not know any better so we dealt with it. I do remember being frustrated when there was the warning of a clip collision. Now that there is a better way, we can get things done faster. So when we have to edit in PP and manage tracks and somewhere down the line things go out of sync, time is wasted trying to fix it.
-
Actually you do get that behavior when adjusting the ins and outs for subclips and comment markers inside Prelude. I don’t mark a thing inside PPro. I start every Adobe job in Prelude.
-
Unfortunately this thread got derailed, but the edit session I am doing today brought me right back to the concept. I’m cutting in Premiere and, yes, using the “pancake” method.
What folks miss is that due to Premiere’s ability to tab sequences, you can, for example, have one window of the “pancake” loaded up with a bunch of tabs for various cutdowns and then your target sequence in the second timeline window of the “pancake”. In this case, I’ve got about 50 hours of footage, which I boiled down to about 2 dozen cutdowns/stringouts. From these I’m cutting a 2 min video.
I’ve found it infinitely faster to use this method than X’s keyword/collection/smart collection process. For one thing, I find it faster to quickly scrub through a cutdown sequence than through favorites in a collection. Plus when I go from one tab to the next, the options instantly pop up. When I go between collections in X (each with a bunch of thumbnails), it takes a long time for each to load.
Obviously, to each his own, but it just seems faster to me.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up