-
Markers or Metadata – The Debate!
-
[Oliver Peters] “He seemed to imply that Vashi’s technique would be less useful with non-scripted content.”
I think it is less useful in those cases. The fact that documentaries have been made using traditional editing & organizational methods since 1922 doesn’t change this. Frederick Wiseman edited his 1968 High School documentary by himself — but it was shot on a single 16mm Bolex camera, and only used a 25:1 shooting ratio: https://www.zipporah.com/films/21
For Titicut Follies he shot 37 hr and his shooting ratio was 26:1, however it took him 14 months to edit: https://www.zipporah.com/films/22
When Ken Burns edited The Civil War, he said “it took more than two years of absolutely solid work, with ten or twelve of us working six days a week, ten hours a day”. It was edited on a flatbed Steenbeck. Yet it was “only” 50,000 ft of 16mm film, which at 24 fps and 36 feet per min equates to 23 hours of material:
https://www.btlnews.com/crafts/post-production/technicolor-postworks-helps-restore-the-civil-war/
https://archive.org/stream/Documentary_Filmmakers_Speak/Documentary_Filmmakers_Speak_djvu.txtIf Wiseman had access to GoPros and flash-storage cameras he’d have probably used them. In 1988, if Burns had access to a MAM he might have used it, which would have shortened the two-year edit time.
We have those today, and shooting ratios can be over 300:1 for docs, but in many cases we’re still using organizational methods from prior eras.
Vashi’s demonstration was really good, highly informative and a pleasure to watch. The fact he cut 6k Red Raw natively was impressive, although it took a dual-socket 40 core machine.
I just don’t think this organizational method is efficiently scalable to larger productions and higher shooting ratios, esp. docs. The fact these were previously done using primitive methods doesn’t validate this workflow in the modern era. It would actually be good to have more info on what asset management methods are being used today. This aspect is usually given little coverage in these “behind the scenes” accounts.
-
[Joe Marler] “Vashi’s demonstration was really good, highly informative and a pleasure to watch. The fact he cut 6k Red Raw natively was impressive, although it took a dual-socket 40 core machine. “
What’s wrong with that? Dual 10 core workstations aren’t exactly rare as modern workstations go. ☺
Shawn
-
[Shawn Miller] “What’s wrong with that? Dual 10 core workstations aren’t exactly rare as modern workstations go.”
It was a dual-socket 40-core Dell 7910, about $17,000 not including the storage and monitors. Nothing wrong with that — in fact it’s good they could afford those since he said Premiere on a Mac Pro wasn’t fast enough. Of course the Mac Pro is plenty fast enough to edit Red Raw 6k using FCPX, since I can do that on my iMac.
But since everyone doesn’t use FCPX, Apple must deliver the necessary hardware performance, else they are relegated to providing editing platforms that are only viable for FCPX. Vashi’s case is just one example of what increasingly happens. Had the Mac Pro been fast enough (or available in a more robust configuration) he’d have probably used that. As it was Apple lost the sale and Vashi bought several Dell workstations. That’s what happens when Apple doesn’t update hardware for three and 1/2 years in a performance-critical market segment.
-
[Joe Marler]”I just don’t think this organizational method is efficiently scalable to larger productions and higher shooting ratios, esp. docs”
Talking to editors over the years, it seems the ratio bloat has required more efficient organizational and technical systems but the one characteristic that I don’t hear is that they want less time to consider their edits. So there comes a time when no amount of metadata or computer power is going to change that basic limit. No matter how fast you can manage footage and edit alternatives, time is needed to just sit and consider.
On the issue of ratios, I think camera crews need to have a better awareness of story and listen so they know when they can button off. 4K, 6K and 8K should give pause to just rolling the camera in hope that something vaguely interesting or relevant might happen. As I’ve gotten back in the saddle and shooting and producing docos after many years in post, I am very aware of thinking about story, setting up situations and not just using the camera as a notebook will make the editing more about craft and less about data management. One way is to make the director go through the rushes and mark up by whatever method. The real bloat in docos in shooting ratios based on lazy technique, not software to manage it.
-
[Joe Marler] “Of course the Mac Pro is plenty fast enough to edit Red Raw 6k using FCPX, since I can do that on my iMac.”
Wow, what level of compression and how many layers of Redcode Raw?
[Joe Marler] “As it was Apple lost the sale and Vashi bought several Dell workstations. That’s what happens when Apple doesn’t update hardware for three and 1/2 years in a performance-critical market segment.”
That seems to be happening a lot. I’m interested in seeing what Apple will do to become competitive in this space again.
Shawn
-
[Michael Gissing] “The real bloat in docos in shooting ratios based on lazy technique, not software to manage it.”
Well, not just that. Part of the problem is the relative low cost of cameras. 2 cameras or more for interviews or almost any type of dramatic production used to be unheard of for common productions. Ever since the 5D drove down the price of all high-end cameras, I commonly see camera counts per set-up reach 4 sync cameras, plus an assortment of GoPros, DJI drones, etc. Its rare that I can go directly into an edit. By the time you’ve copied 2-4TB of media, transcoded where needed, and then organized the footage in some manner, several days have passed.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters]”Well, not just that. Part of the problem is the relative low cost of cameras”
True and the low cost of storage. However it so often needs to be questioned whether the value in shooting an interview with 2 or more cameras is paying off. On a recent doco all interviews were shot 6k and editors could reframe. This was a smart way to give framing variation without needing twice the kit, twice the data and the whole timecode lock fiddle.
My personal preference is knowing what is important and appropriate framing whilst listening. This is done with the knowledge that with 4k resolution I can punch in a bit more too. I have two cameras but rarely use both together.
-
[Michael Gissing] “My personal preference is knowing what is important and appropriate framing whilst listening. This is done with the knowledge that with 4k resolution I can punch in a bit more too. I have two cameras but rarely use both together.”
Are you still shooting with the 4.6k Ursa Mini Michael? If so, what format are you tending to capture in?
Shawn
-
[Shawn Miller]”Are you still shooting with the 4.6k Ursa Mini Michael? If so, what format are you tending to capture in?”
Yes plus I also have my older Blackmagic 4k brick. Mostly I am shooting UHD ProResHQ with ‘film’ gamma. This is to minimise editing issues with 4:1cDNG raw. I am occasionally shooting the compressed raw on footage with high dynamic range or difficult lighting conditions to get the most in post. The docos I am shooting/ producing are largely in controlled lighting so ProResHQ is fine for that. Compressed raw is not a lot more data but I’m balancing editing efficiencies and also the director can’t view rushes in cDNG on her laptop but can just play UHD ProRes so I don’t need to transcode rushes.
-
[Michael Gissing] “[Shawn Miller]”Are you still shooting with the 4.6k Ursa Mini Michael? If so, what format are you tending to capture in?”
Yes plus I also have my older Blackmagic 4k brick. Mostly I am shooting UHD ProResHQ with ‘film’ gamma. This is to minimise editing issues with 4:1cDNG raw. I am occasionally shooting the compressed raw on footage with high dynamic range or difficult lighting conditions to get the most in post. The docos I am shooting/ producing are largely in controlled lighting so ProResHQ is fine for that. Compressed raw is not a lot more data but I’m balancing editing efficiencies and also the director can’t view rushes in cDNG on her laptop but can just play UHD ProRes so I don’t need to transcode rushes.”
Thanks for the info, that was exactly what I wanted know; if when and why you were shooting raw. ☺
Shawn
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up