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Kansas firm sells candid Wal-Mart videos
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You know, the Bible says the disciple Simon Peter vowed his undying loyalty to Jesus, then denied knowing him three times and ran off during the events portrayed in The Passion Play. And we made him the first leader of the Church. I’m not going to say I’m any less flawed a human being than him.
Just sayin’, it is nice to declare your morals and principles, and easy to SAY what you’d do in every situation, but you never really KNOW what you’ll do until the situation is really happening, to you, and you have to decide: do I honor a picket line, on principle, or does my family get to eat tonight? Do I do illegal performance enhancing drugs because I must keep pace with everyone else in the game that’s doing them or lose my ticket? Do I stick to my code, if it leads to innocents suffering? Am I punishing the wicked or fueling my own pride and need for revenge? Stand my ground and be gunned down or run from combat? Could I or would I kill a person that threatened or actually harmed my family, in cold blood, after he was jailed and no longer an immediate threat? How much profit is an obscene amount, in a world where CEO’s can earn 70 million dollars a year for FAILURE and bankruptcy, and dishwashers and nurse’s aides can’t get a one-dollar raise on their minimum wage? Nobody really KNOWS what they’ll do in these situations until they are in them. To say one does is wishing. We only know what we HOPE we would do, what we think we SHOULD do, and we try to live by that. Sometimes we meet or exceed our expectations. Sometimes we don’t.
This is not aimed at anybody in particular. But we are talking about moral codes, professional ethics, and choices. It’s okay to announce your code: it helps you live by it, as others hold you to what you’ve pledged, and encourage you along the way. Your example may also inspire others and uplift everyone by extension.
Is Flagler immoral for asking arguably the world’s richest corporation for a larger share, to buy what he technically had a right to sell? I’m not going to say he’s justified just because Walmart would have zero delay in making a business decision in reverse circumstances. It is quite correct that two wrongs don’t make a right. But don’t you think there was a social contract in place for those thirty years that Walmart was the first to break?
I think a guy’s character is rightly determined in part by how he reacts to being wronged, if he sinks to the level of his tormentor, plays by his rules or the other guy’s. I tend to give everybody one free whack at ripping me off, I’m a generally trusting, some would say, gullible, person. But I only give you one free shot to rip me off. After that, its war. Because coming at me to rip me off a second time means you’re never going to stop, and so I have to stop you. That’s not as Christian as I was taught to be. But it allows me to survive in an imperfect world, while giving everybody at least a chance.
Flagler arguably made a bad business decision and a technically legal, but shady ethical call, after being dealt a crippling blow. Being absolutist about his rightness or wrongness just seems a bit unfair, if we are not under the same circumstances. I’m not trying to defend him, condone him, or even explain him… or conversely to insult or accuse those who feel strongly negatively about him. I’m just more comfortable talking about matters of actual fact and law than of motivation in this case, because I, we, just don’t know enough yet about what the heck happened here that lead to this result. If I was sixty years old, buried in debt, without other work prospects, scre… um, worked-over by a gigantic corporation that I’d slaved for over thirty years, and they unwittingly gave me a weapon in business terms that I could use to set myself up comfortably for life, I think I would be sorely tempted to use it. I think we all would. Not all of us would act on it, for various reasons.
But we’ll never know for certain what we’re made of until we’re tested in the fire ourselves. Simon Peter thought he knew.
Thus endeth the lesson.
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Gav, “Fair Use” here is a defense, not a license. It is not at all a “pass go, get out of jail free”, Monopoly-card inevitability. You take your chances and do the project and they go ahead and sue you and you go to court and the court decides if you used their stuff and you admit that yes, it was their stuff you used…. and THEN you get to plead that you are excused under the cover of Fair Use. And only then does the court decide if your claim fits one of the specific examples and rules of the Fair Use exception. And even if you win, you may lose, because the way the courts drag on for ages, who but a rich corporation can afford the legal defense over all that time? More urgently, who in their right mind is going to front you the money to make a film containing these clips until you get this issue worked out and you can assure them the thing will ever get to air anywhere but your mom’s basement? So it’s a huge damper on the production of many independent documentaries.
I really envy the system you have Down Under for licensing pop music for things like wedding videos. We are in the stone age of copyright law by comparison up here, kept that way by Disney and Sony and the rest, and technically we’d be in the wrong to ever use an uncleared music clip for any public project, or even an internal company video like one might play at Walmart. See, I brought it back at the end, pretty clever huh?:-)
Gotta go to bed now, have spent the last three hours locked in an epic debate with my guardian angel over this issue, only to get inconclusive results, and I don’t pay myself overtime.
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Wow…
I don’t think this is too smart a move by the production company. If the facts here are true, whatever your attitudes toward Wal-Mart or any other company, the production company is in the wrong here. It just reaks of unprofessionalism.
I am also shocked that Wal-Mart didn’t have some sort of contract to cover this even if the relationship began in the 70s. Where I work, we have hundreds of major clients. As far as I know, the client owns all tapes including field etc. When we end a relationship with a client, all tapes including masters and field are given back to them.
Tommy D’Angelo
Editor
Punk Rock Kid
NYC by way of Westchester -
I am pushing 60, Mark. While the aging thing sucks and the sick part really sucks, there are some advantages. I know who I am at this point and who I am not. I have learned that there are some lines I am willing to cross and some I am not.
Some people are quite willing to sell out their ethics and morals based on circumstances based on relativism and situational ethics. I have learned over the years that I am not one of them. The people that know me best would tell you that.
I am stubborn. I am pushing 60 and think that it is life’s grand adventure to work at building your character. Yes, all of us screw up and fall. That is the point of and the necessity for grace. It’s why even my bitterest rivals will get another chance with me if they are willing to learn. Where I live, it’s not the number of times that a man falls that determines his character but rather the number of times he picks himself up. Life is for learning. Perfection is best left to the Creator.
Unlike the scenario you painted here with all its relativism and subjective pondering of situational ethics, I have learned that for me, life is meaningless when lived in that kind of vacuum. If your character is only as strong as your convenience and desire for gain, it will break down.
The people at Flagler can say all they want that they have a “right” to do what they do. Me, I think that they are people of such reprehensible character that have taken a company — regardless of what you may think of them — and have stabbed them in the back. That is my opinion and you are welcome to yours. I wouldn’t trust their judgment in anything at this point and if I had the chance to work with them for free, I’d say “No thanks.”
Wrap it in vague relativism all you want, this is a plain ole case of betraying a confidence that they knew for 30 years that they were obligated to uphold. If was a case of rights, why didn’t they exercise them 30 years ago? They knew they couldn’t do it or they’d lose the client.
There are such things as implied and verbal contracts and I think that Wal-Mart — no matter how much I detest them as a company — is the company to teach these people the meaning of the terms.
And next time you want to challenge me on ethical values and beliefs and tie it into religion, Mark, please write me offline as I try not to have these kinds of debates here in the COW but am always ready to defend my own beliefs, and why I believe them.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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There wasn’t a first time. I’m sorry if you took it that way, Ron. I spent three hours last night soul-searching, writing, trashing, re-writing and editing that post specifically so as NOT to do that. In no way was it a challenge to anybody’s character, rather, one opinion that character is not what you say, but what you do. I think we’re more in agreement than not about a lot of this Flagler issue, from where I stand. But yes, we can keep it on just the issue of the technical legalities, I didn’t presume to really “preach” to anyone.
Implied and verbal contracts are worth less than the paper they are not printed on in court. What matters in a courtroom is not what was said un-witnessed, they throw that out as hearsay.
All a judge wants to see is, hard physical evidence. Words on paper, signed and notarized, and some proof the pledge on the paper was carried out in whole or in part. Saying Walmart had an expectation of privacy by an unspoken “understanding” is not law. It is very much the customary practice in our business, but it is not a law. It is an assumption that the other guy lives by the same code you do, this is very different from what is law. And its why we have to HAVE laws, for people who don’t have the same code of conduct we share.
Verbal agreements are not enforceable unless they meet several criteria. Honorable people like you and I stand by them anyway because we were raised that way and we also consider it in our best interest as professionals. Its a small circle we work in, and if you ruin your reputation, you’ll never climb out of that hole, you’d be lucky to move to another market and start from scratch, and the internet makes it impossible to escape a bad rep anymore. Flagler stands to be an object lesson to all the folks coming up in the business that you can pay a high price to “win”.
Please however, don’t tag me unfairly as being his apologist. I’m not. Nor a moral relativist, which I have to say hurts a little bit. I’m only trying to look at the problem from all sides and figure out what we can learn from it. Not to judge anyone.
We still friends or what? I’d like to think so.
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Here in California, I have seen more than a few verbal contracts enforced. I sat on a Chapter 11 board on behalf of one of the banks whose interests I was securing and representing and we sicked our attorneys on one of the vendors who helped put the company in jeopardy based on what they agreed to but did not do. There was no contract but it held and the company had to make good.
You cannot simply sweep away all verbal agreements and say that the only thing that holds is the contract. While the contract is indeed the “bones” of the agreement body, there are things that can be made to stick — call it the “skin,” if you will — that when proven by witnesses, can be made to hold.
I cut away half of what I wrote to you because in it, I had given example after example of where I slit my own throat to honor my word. Those who know me, know I will — and do. Like you, I believe talk is cheap and actions do indeed speak louder than words. Since you want to quote the Bible earlier, I will tell you one of my favorite verses and one which I try to live by: “Who shall ascend the Lord’s holy hill, but he that swears an oath and holds to it, even unto his own hurt.” You do not know me and so it doesn’t surprise me that you think what you do. It really holds little weight with me as I learned long ago that there are always critics and those quick to think that you are like them and who judge you by what they think and do. Sometimes, they are right, other times they are wrong — in the end, it is you who must decide how much of it is true in your own life.
I have asked you before to call me and let’s talk through some of the misunderstandings that you and I have with each other on this and past issues. You don’t want to. That is fine but if you think being called a “moral relativist” hurt your feelings, then you may have missed the part in which you called me a hypocrite in a few hundred words or more.
Lastly, you are ABSOLUTELY correct that judges do indeed look at the hard and fast evidence. And rule based on it. But thankfully, I have seen in my own experience over the years that they do indeed take into consideration and weigh in and balance the testimony of those parties who we the active participants in a matter. When a clause in a document exists, it will always determine the ruling in that area. But where no such clear cut clause exists, then the testimony of witnesses does indeed have bearing and does hold sway in the outcome. In that, I hope that Wal-Mart can clean these guys clocks by parading out a long line of people who over the years knew and were party to things which will tie Flagler’s hands behind their backs. They deserve nothing less and I am truly ashamed that they are even a representative in this industry.
If there’s anything else you have to say, call me — or don’t. I am done with this leg of this topic.
Best always,
Ron Lindeboom
PS (added a few minutes after I wrote the full post): Yes, I would consider you someone that I like. Friends? I can’t say yes to that as I do not know you. I do not use the word “friend” lightly and I have some friends here in the COW and they know I would do anything for them and that they can count on me, fer sure. That’s what friends are for. Well, so sang Dionne Warwick, anyway.
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Ron is something wrong. Last week I went to the article on “Windows on a mac” and you were tearing a strip off of someone, implying they were an idiot and telling them to “remind me to never listen to snything you have to say again”. This week I come to this forum and you’re doing the same thing. Gee, I’d almost think you’re missing your yearly trip to Vegas (NAB). You know there are other ways to have a vacation. In the immortal words of my teenage son…chill man;.)
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[Ron Lindeboom] “Shame on them. What unprofessional hack”
I agree with Ron a thousand percent. This is a direct violation of trust. Walmart would be insane to give these incredible maggots a dime. They need to bury them in the legal system. ANYONE who agrees with Flagler is incredibly unethical. I guess it would be OK if someone that used to work for you put all of your private business the web, right.
I cannot put into words how incensed I am that these dirt bags turned on their former client. I have been released by several companies for different reasons. It never made me want to drop my honor and become a filthy rat.
Unbelievable!
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD . -
They have a multi million dollar video facility in their main building in Bentonville, Arkansas. I’ve stood in there. Their shoot studio is a 40 x 40 room with a set in each corner and a set on each wall for a total of eight. We were there in ’95 to bid on a job that included putting a video program on the in-store monitors. They told us that the stores could not afford $15 each to see this happen. This was a lie and they stole our ideas and use them today in many of their stores. It was stupid on our part to give our ideas away but it was a huge, 10 year contract that we were talking about. At the time, WalMart was still a supporter of US companies.
After seeing their studio, I asked “If you have this huge facility, why are you talking to us?”. Their answer was that the project we were talking about was way too small for their facility.
Even though they stole our ideas and we were left out in the cold, it never crossed my mind to act like a 10 year old and seek revenge. I chalked it up to experience and moved forward.
Flagler was ignorant for depending on one source for their income.
This move will end up costing them anything they have left. Stupid. Immature. Traitors. Backstabbers. And if anyone agrees with them, you need to rethink a few things. Yeah, they might be the scourge of the retail industry, but you don’t sink to the level of dog poo when you get jilted.
No sympathy for Flagler. They’re finished.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD . -
[Ron Lindeboom] “. I once had a girlfriend who called me “…a 19th century moralist living in the 20th century.” In response I said, “thanks.” Today I have moved on to being a 19th century moralist living in the 21st century. Now that’s progress, baby! “
Ron, I am steaming over this one. The actions of this vindictive pair could hurt all of us. I have stuff in my library that could cause many firings, lawsuites, public humiliation, divorce and every thing else under the sun. Someone earlier said that we needed to look at this professionally and drop the name calling. However, I think someone needs to take this low life Flagler cry baby, piece of crap out and beat some sense into him. Speaking about him on a professional level is an injustice to the word itself. The backlash to the rest of us could be incredible.
When our clients hire us, they expect a certain level of professionalism on our part which includes keeping company business where it belongs, with the company, just like Vegas. Vegas’ entire campaign is “We won’t rat you out”. I agree that if we were to see some flagrant violation of human rights or major crime, we should deal with it in a professional manner. That would entail telling the client that we no longer wish to have a business arrangement with them and then contact the proper authorities to get the wheels of justice rolling. I was on a $3000 a day “exercise video shoot” once when the main girl’s top came off and we told producer that we didn’t work in the porn industry. He said that he would “Tell the world” that we walked out on him and we did just that. Any “word” from him and the consequences would have been drastic. No court house and no lawyers. He knows that I have no problem doing 30 days to protect my reputation.
As for Flagler, getting fired and then putting his client’s secrets out there for sale is nothing but pure GREED, GREED, GREED, mixed with the ethics of a teenager. There isn’t one ounce of professionalism involved here, just sheer greed.
If he hates WalMart so much, he should begin by returning the money he took from them. Oh, he won’t do that? So, it’s ok to keep the money they gave him and if he had a problem with their corporate policies, he should have quit. But no, his greed kept him taking the checks to the bank. What a pathetic little weasle.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .
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