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Just heard Jan speak on DV guys abot the HVX-200
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I think that changing the DVCProHD codec would bring other issues with it, and I for one am glad to see that Panasonic is using the established codec on the new camera. The HVX200 will shoot footage that will work seamlessly with established edit systems, and that can be mastered to (heaven forbid!) established tape formats on existing decks.
This wouldn’t be possible if the format were changed.
It’s the established post path that I find so appealing from the HVX200.
If they were to start fiddling with the codec, then essentially we’d be dealing with a new format. Then you’re in HDV territory, without a clear and established post workflow and equipment support.Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas -
“The HVX200 will shoot footage that will work seamlessly with established edit systems, and that can be mastered to (heaven forbid!) established tape formats on existing decks.”
But, I believe, the HVX200 won’t work with established NLEs as it is now. That’s why FCP 5 is coming out. Of course, if the codec were changed in a big way, instead of just tweaked a bit, it might’ve been more difficult to work out with FCP, and entailed changes that Apple wasn’t willing to make, but those are issues outside the scope of my knowledge.
Also, using existing tape decks doesn’t really apply to my workflow, since I render all my footage out with a BlackMagic codec, 10 bit 4:4:4 uncompressed. Dumping it back to DVCPRO HD at that point just recompresses it. So for me, a new codec would be great, since I don’t ever see a DVCPRO HD deck, Except for capture, but P2 will take care of that problem nicely!
Maybe it’s different for movies, but I never master back onto the format the material was shot on. I guess for tv and stuff, it’s probably the norm. So, I’ll admit I’m probably in a minority here on this one.
jeremiah black
dual 2 gig G5
2.5 gigs of RAM
Decklink Extreme capture card -
[jeremiah black] “But, I believe, the HVX200 won’t work with established NLEs as it is now.
It’s getting the NLE to recognize the P2 files that was the issue, not the codec itself, as far as I understand it. Avid, FCP, Canopus, and many others already support every variation of DVCPro. Let’s remember DVCProHD has been around for years. So, support was added now for these systems to recognize the P2 files as DVCPro encoded files. But the majority have already been able to handle the codec itself.
but those are issues outside the scope of my knowledge.
And mine too.
Also, using existing tape decks doesn’t really apply to my workflow, since I render all my footage out with a BlackMagic codec, 10 bit 4:4:4 uncompressed. Dumping it back to DVCPRO HD at that point just recompresses it. So for me, a new codec would be great, since I don’t ever see a DVCPRO HD deck, Except for capture, but P2 will take care of that problem nicely!
You may not use a tape deck in your workflow, but someone is mastering your work to tape at some point (unless they are going directly to a filmprint from you hard drive master). As much as most of us want to get rid of tape, it will still be around for quite a while. P2 is a step in the right direction for getting tape out of the aquisition stage, but the vast majority of projects will still be mastered onto tape for years.
I think (or hope) the HVX is giving us what could be the perfect solution for a transitional period as we go not only from SD to HD, but from tape to solid state recording. And the best way to make that transition is to do it through the use of an established codec, as opposed to trying to establish a new one (or a new variation). Just look at how many confusing issues are coming up over the use of HDV (granted, that’s a whole other discussion).
Maybe it’s different for movies, but I never master back onto the format the material was shot on. I guess for tv and stuff, it’s probably the norm. So, I’ll admit I’m probably in a minority here on this one.”
While it may not be the best idea, I think a lot of people do in fact master back to the same format.
Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas -
[Rodrigo Lizana] “I really like to know (a good technical reason) why this camera is going to add the pulldown to the 1080p24 mode instead of using all the 100 mb/s bandwidth on the 24 frames per second. “
Because DVCPRO-HD uses a fixed data rate per frame. It’s not variable-bitrate, it allocates exactly the same bitrate to every frame. It’s not 100 megabits per second, it’s more like 3.34 megabits per frame 1080 frame.
That’s why 720/24p takes up 40 megabits, rather than being spread across 100. It’s the very nature of the fixed-bitrate, constant-bitrate, intraframe-only compression that lets DVCPRO-HD work as well as it does (no GOP, instant edit, edit-ready, preview through firewire, no variable-resolution issues on panning, etc).
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(LUIS) “You may not use a tape deck in your workflow, but someone is mastering your work to tape at some point (unless they are going directly to a filmprint from you hard drive master). As much as most of us want to get rid of tape, it will still be around for quite a while. P2 is a step in the right direction for getting tape out of the aquisition stage, but the vast majority of projects will still be mastered onto tape for years.”
Sure, but if you have to master out to tape, it would be mastered out to D5 or HD SR HQ. Not back to such a compressed format, unless money was tight. And, as far as movies go, either one of three things happens (a) they go to film (in which case you print it from the hard drive) ; (b) they go straight to DVD (in which case you encode it from the hard drive) ; or (c) it goes straight to TV- which usually doesn’t happen, but then it gets dumped to digibeta or D1 from your NLE timeline. So, odd as it may seem, going back to DVCPRO HD, really never comes up at all.
I certianly agree that tape will be around as a delivery format for a while, but I’m not so sure it will be as long as we think. I know for spots I’ve done for MTV, that all their stuff gets digitzied and put on a server and broadcast from there. Sure, I’ll still turn in a digibeta tape to them, they’ll nod and accept it, and we’ll all go through the same old routine, but it would save us both time and money if I just handed them a hard drive and they gave me the digitizing specs beforehand. The work I’ve done on digital cable is the same. I’ve seen MPEG2 encoded spots get handed off, only to be decoded, then dumped to beta SP, then handed off, then captured again to be re-encoded into MPEG2 for digital cable broadcast. Aaaarggghh! What waste! I wanted to scream, “just hand the hard drive and go, buddy! What are you guys doing?”
(LUIS) “While it may not be the best idea, I think a lot of people do in fact master back to the same format.”
That’s very true, but I’d just like to suggest that everyone do a side by side test. After heavy color correction, render you footage out (1) to the same codec it was shot in, and (2) to a 10 bit, uncomressed 4:4:4 (or 4:2:2 for SD) codec, and then just marvel at the difference. After seeing that, you’ll never want to dump it back to highly compressed tape again. (Unless you’re on a budget. Money trumps purity, of course.)
jeremiah black
dual 2 gig G5
2.5 gigs of RAM
Decklink Extreme capture card -
[Luis Caffesse] “This wouldn’t be possible if the format were changed. “
Of course it would!
The history of formats is full of downward compatible formats. -
[jeremiah black] “render you footage out (1) to the same codec it was shot in, and (2) to a 10 bit, uncomressed 4:4:4 (or 4:2:2 for SD) codec,”
I’m just wondering what’s your typical camera original format?
1920×1080 4:4:4 output seems a bit overkill if your original is hdcam(chroma 480×1080) or varicam(chroma 480×720).
More color depth is of course always beneficial when you change the colors. -
[Rodrigo Lizana] “I really like to know (a good technical reason) why this camera is going to add the pulldown to the 1080p24 mode instead of using all the 100 mb/s bandwidth on the 24 frames per second. “
Rodrigo,
The reason is very simple. Only the A frame is flagged in the 2:3:3:2 and to make the camera record just the 24 frames, each frame would need to carry a flag. This is what is in the VariCam codec. This is why it is simple to record just the 24 frames in 720P. That work is done. People, I believe, based on comments on this board, think this is easy stuff to do. Consider this, that if they implement the full variable frame rate, there are 72 formats to test and support on this little camcorder. This is not insignificant engineering. To deliver real I frame only HD recording at a price point below $10,000, is innovative.
Hope this helps,
Jan
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems -
Basically, I think Panasonic are trying to give us as many features as possible without making everything unique and custom for this particular camera. They already have the vari-frame 720p stuff from the Varicam – the 24p embedded in interlaced video from the DVX etc. Perhaps they’re just joining all these technologies together as best they can without spending silly budgets re-inventing everything, so that we get a camera we can afford, rather than another Varicam, which, although nice, is quite unaffordable for most of us?? Am I on the right track here Jan?? I know that if I was developing a new cost effective camera I’d try to re-use rather than re-invent as much as possible,
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP
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I’m sure that there will be new codecs in the future, but now is not the time. We have all the places of the DVCProHD workflow in place, and it would be daft to change that for this camera. I know it would make the quality better to distribute the bits better, but it would also then make this camera an island. Look at all the bother we’ve had with the introduction of the new HDV codec, and now JVC threw a spanner in the works with their 24p mode that nobody is supporting yet (save 3rd party vendors like LumiereHD) because they, the NLE people, have only just got normal HDV “working”.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP
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