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Interesting little series…
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then why is it that the footage item has exactly one route? it routes only into semantic tags on the left. It one step diffuses footage into an undifferentiated database tag query.
FCPX is only left right Steve – there are no places. there is an event containing database tags – and one viewer to see those tags exposed: the event viewer.
A lot of people on here remark on its speed – give me at least the point that I have mucked around pretty extensively with the software – I’ve even mocked up alternative keyframing apparatus for God’s sake. I am aware of the fundamental speed up in the event area tagging.
that system which Apple are employing is intended to short circuit a lot of the classical footage interrogation steps – you rapidly diffuse all the footage into a database set of tag queries – the argument is that you are in fact, by limiting it to this – one step, make a tag database, and then view those tags in the viewer -fundamentally limiting spatial and cognitive understanding of the assets at hand.
Steve – i actually kind of think this could be true. I’m not saying this for argument giggles.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “Steve – i actually kind of think this could be true.”
and as I keep saying, based on nearly 20 years of editing experience and nearly two years of actually using the software, it’s not true. It certainly does it differently but it absolutely does not limit the edit process.
Steve Connor
There’s nothing we can’t argue about on the FCPX COW Forum
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but steve – I have some idea what I’m doing too – and I’ve got a decade and a half (sort of, he said brushing mograph and 3D eras under the rug)
[Steve Connor] ” It certainly does it differently but it absolutely does not limit the edit process.”
you can say it doesn’t – but your professional experience doesn’t exclusively validate your position.
I’m looking at the exact same thing – and I really think it may have inherent cognitive limitations and drawbacks.our positions, as they say, differ.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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I guess I’m not understanding. How does X hamper your workflow? Because it sounds to me almost exactly like mine, and I find that I work a lot quicker and more efficiently without compromising on my familiarity with the footage.
A recent example: I was working on a series of Digital Cinema spots for a sportswear brand. Multiple cameras shooting all around the world, 15 shoot days with 3 cameras a day, sometimes 4 or 5 if production went in for specialized rigs. Sound recorded separately.
I’d get the footage in at the end of the day on hard-drives. Bringing them into X was painless, fast and I was able to start going through the rushes right away. Syncing sound was a breeze, as was syncing clips with multiple angles.
The time spent going through the material was the same, because that’s not something that you can speed up, if you’re conscientious. But skimming helps – it’s less clicking and when dealing with vast amounts of footage, personally it makes a big difference to me. Keywording and Smart Collections help in rapidly organizing the material – I have for instance a Collection set up for very specific ‘high speed action shots with good hair’, as that was in the mood board. And I can instantly reference that in the session.
I can also go through and stabilize certain shots that may need it, so that when I put them in my 1st cut to present to the agency, the Creative Director doesn’t say “Hmmm it’s nice but is there something without the jerk”.
I can line up various takes in an Audition and we can cycle through at the click of a button until we find something that makes someone happy. Or when someone says “I thought we had that on one of the takes toward the end” I can reference it instantly and play it in context.
I find that the features in X help me, not edit better, but make better use of my time as an editor.
In fact on another series of spots that we worked on, (we were producers and post was handled by an in house agency team) I’d come back at the end of the day, feed the footage into X, sync sound etc and be done in a couple of hours at the most. The agency team had assists come in at night and work through until the morning syncing, sub-clipping etc so that the editors could start around noon.
And then they start going through the footage. So there’s a significant difference.
My take on spatial awareness in the NLE, is knowing where that clip you liked on that scrub through a couple of hours ago is. At least for me, sometimes it takes time for the significance of something to register. And it’s easier now to just tag something that’s not Key, but might be nice to work in maybe as a jump cut or an element comped in somewhere, and know where it is and be able to access it quickly.
This is why I find it hard to understand how people work through the Finder – I’d be lost inside the NLE in that case.
Perhaps I’m missing the point though?
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “that system which Apple are employing is intended to short circuit a lot of the classical footage interrogation steps – you rapidly diffuse all the footage into a database set of tag queries – the argument is that you are in fact, by limiting it to this – one step, make a tag database, and then view those tags in the viewer -fundamentally limiting spatial and cognitive understanding of the assets at hand.”
Here, have some more sauce.
Seriously though, it’s starting to devolve in to insanity, comments like this.
Because of this:
[Aindreas Gallagher] “footage review, naming and marking in the day date camera original bins, then taking those master bins, with all the clips keyword named (with some tagged markers per clip), and then judging a whole new set of bins – crowd react day, different sport items, timelapse, different music acts, evening events – basically figuring the ideal number and nature of the final edit bins to work with -and then going through and populating all the clips into those new category bins.
then I made select sequences for all the major tasty stuff in each new category bin.”
If you replace the word “bins” with keyword collection or other FCPX conventions, you easily could have been discussing FCPX. I thought you said you have used FCPX? Once you start adding your favorites, which is the real interrogation process, or range based keywords, you know exactly where that footage is and most likely what is in it.
There is nothing stopping you from watching the blasted footage in FCPX, and organizing it, either to memory, or to a “place”.
Also, being able to preorganize and label of the audio channels before editing, being able to setup a smart collection to organize your footage by date (or day, or hour, or angle, or whatever you’d like) allows you to actually get to watching the footage without having to run it through the sifter to make the existing flour in to more useable flour just to bake a cake. Have more footage that comes in later? Import it and FCPX sifts it so you can keep making cakes. What makes more money, sifting flour or selling cakes?
Why the hell did I bring baking in to this?
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I think perhaps we’re misunderstanding what Aindreas is saying?
As an aside, it would help if the FCPX training that is out there actually consists of projects that are halfway representative of real world projects that editors get.
The Ripple Re-enactment Fighters deal and Larry Jordan’s Garden Gnome and talking head are so far removed from reality to be ridiculous.
When I was learning Mocha through Curious Turtle, they weren’t dicking around, it was proper problems with proper solutions.
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “you can say it doesn’t – but your professional experience doesn’t exclusively validate your position.
I’m looking at the exact same thing – and I really think it may have inherent cognitive limitations and drawbacks.our positions, as they say, differ.”
That’s true, I’m coming from the position of liking and using the software and you’re coming from a fanatical hate with a little bit of tinkering around with it 🙂
Steve Connor
There’s nothing we can’t argue about on the FCPX COW Forum
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[Sandeep Sajeev] “Keywording and Smart Collections help in rapidly organizing the material”
that is the same as it ever was. One thing I find funny is this overemphasis on smart collections – a browser search on 7 presents a persistent bin containing the search query for instance. Although yes – it is a search return – it will not populate future similar items.
And yes – ok – audio sync is nice, but to my understanding, X is not in a position to assemble a grab bag of multiple rushes and multiple wavs? Maybe thats out of date, but my understanding was that it was not pluraleyes.
[Sandeep Sajeev] “I can also go through and stabilize certain shots that may need it,”
again that seems tangential – and warp stabiliser beats it into a bloody pulp.[Sandeep Sajeev] “I can line up various takes in an Audition”
the rippling effect on the timeline with multiple takes of different lengths seems extremely disadvantageous to me.[Sandeep Sajeev] “My take on spatial awareness in the NLE, is knowing where that clip you liked on that scrub through a couple of hours ago is. At least for me, sometimes it takes time for the significance of something to register. And it’s easier now to just tag something that’s not Key, but might be nice to work in maybe as a jump cut or an element comped in somewhere, and know where it is and be able to access it quickly.”
ok – but this in no way answers the fact that you have exactly a one step process – footage to tags. you have an event and its viewer – you can open no bins, you can develop no familiarity with those bins, you cannot choose at certain points to arrange those bins of familiar material on a second screen.
look – that is not old hat.
Exactly all you have is an event with semantic sub tags – and a single event viewer for those keyword tags.
As Bill rightly points out – there are limits to colour coded postcard bulletin boards.
But (A): in personal experience with very contemporary footage volume workflows – we haven’t reached it.
and (B): the absence of that intimate differentiated footage item awareness space (literally space) has costs.
You have exactly two things: an event with keyword tags, and a viewer to view them in – one at a time.
that feels highly restrictive.
there are no multiple sites at once, there is no cross examination, there is no spatial recall – there are a lot of memory paths cut out there – a lot of what we do relies on us making spontaneous links at critical junctures, we need to reach somewhere to do that – is that a single list of semantic tags to click?
half the reason why I, or anyone, has over-elaborate set up routines is to allow the possibility of that potential memory link to bed in.I literally over organise to get a pay off.
X, in my view has cut beyond organisational fat into marrow – I need spatial stuff. I need places and other places where things once were.
we virtualise clips into the select sequences anyway.the whole editing game, to some degree, is finding a way to allow associative recall at a critical juncture – sure aren’t all memory feats built on the construction of virtual rooms? Derren Brown is extremely interesting on that point. He constructs incredibly spatial memory awareness constructs to allow card count recall.
Quite literally rooms with objects in them – its worth looking up. Spatial awareness constructs harness memory to an incredible degree.there is a reason editing systems have historically had rooms, and folders, and bins, and attics (seriously – think about that – classic lightworks had attics).
but as the man says – I’m sure Apple felt very, very smart when they decided to do this tagging malarky. I’m just not sure they did their intellectual homework.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Here, have some more sauce.”
gentle there Garchow – ala Tim’s admonition – ad hominem attacks are somewhat off the menu, and I am, as we speak, cutting a client piece late here.
you really do run quite a line in overt agression when it suits you.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “gentle there Garchow – ala Tim’s admonition – ad hominem attacks are somewhat off the menu, and I am, as we speak, cutting a client piece late here.
you really do run quite a line in overt agression when it suits you.”
For telling you to drink some more of my crazy FCPX Kool-Aid sauce?
How is that an attack on you? I was attacking myself. If you are trying to help me by saying that I am being overly aggressive towards myself, well, then, you may have a point.
I figure, at this point, my comments are largely ignored as I post too much about how FCPX actually works in a professional environment, and I how I actually think there are aspects of it that help me get my job done better (not just faster). That’s all I really care about. I am sure you could care less about any of that.
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